Decree – The Will and Purpose of God

[rdlb777]

I’ve laid all of this out in my previous posts, and it’s all founded and supported on God’s Word. It’s upon that solid ground that I stand.

Interesting, most everyone in this forum could say the same and yet have different belief systems than the one you espouse.

We must be careful to not think in harmony with false doctrines regarding God and His Word like those found espoused by cults like Mormonism and Swedenborgian.

Now you have introduced "cults" into this dialogue. Perhaps a very narrow assumption of my belief system? I can only guess.

To not love Himself or seek His Own Glory to the degree He demands from all others, and even more so given He is more able than all others, would be for Him to Acts and to be less than He is, which is impossible.

For God to Acts less than He is, is impossible yes. It is the Acts described as loving Himself expressed in this post questioned. It is a view point from man's perspective and I suspect now a Calvinist perspective. Since man can only love himself and not God, therefore, God loves Himself and is selfish. For me this leaves God as "coercive" in His nature and allows no reciprocal love on man's part. Salvation only by God's direct mercy to individuals without their wills involvement. Far too many Biblical passages to quote here in opposition to this idea.

[5point0253]

by rdlb777 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:42 am

We must be careful to not think in harmony with false doctrines regarding God and His Word like those found espoused by cults like Mormonism and Swedenborgian.

Now you have introduced "cults" into this dialogue. Perhaps a very narrow assumption of my belief system? I can only guess.

I mention specifically the two cults Mormonism and Swedenborgianism specifically because your position seems to me to more closely resemble doctrines espoused by them than that historically espoused by Christianity or found in Scripture. And that doesn’t surprise me any when I see that among your favorite books is “The entire works of Swendenborg”. Perhaps this has had some influence upon your thinking? I can only guess.

To not love Himself or seek His Own Glory to the degree He demands from all others, and even more so given He is more able than all others, would be for Him to Acts and to be less than He is, which is impossible.

For God to Acts less than He is, is impossible yes. It is the Acts described as loving Himself expressed in this post questioned. It is a view point from man's perspective and I suspect now a Calvinist perspective. Since man can only love himself and not God, therefore, God loves Himself and is selfish. For me this leaves God as "coercive" in His nature and allows no reciprocal love on man's part. Salvation only by God's direct mercy to individuals without their wills involvement. Far too many Biblical passages to quote here in opposition to this idea.

“For God to Acts” should have been “For God to Act.” My apologies. Nevertheless, the Acts described as loving Himself expressed in that post (and the others) came directly from the Word of God (direct quotes). It is from God’s perspective. A Scriptural perspective.

I disagree that man can only love himself and not God [if speaking specifically of unregenerate man in distinction to man (as in mankind) in general, I agree; whereas only Regenerate man can and will – however, we have not gotten into this at this point, so I can only assume you mean man in general]. Nor did I state or imply that; nor did I imply this results in the conclusion that God loves Himself and is selfish. If this is your position, I must strongly disagree.

Now, God does Love Himself and above all others, and is rightly Selfish (as it is His Perfect Nature and Character to be). For God to be this way is positive (as demonstrated in my earlier posts), not negative. God is not a man, as both Swedenborgianism and Mormonism teaches. We must not think of Him as such (which I believe you are doing in that you keep on comparing Him with man to come to your conclusions). There is none more deserving of this love than He, thus He rightly Loves Himself above all others (which is also the most positive for all of creation).

How you can take that to mean God is anyway coercive is beyond me. Seems like a very huge jump in logic, and I see no support at all given for such a strained conclusion. To say that it doesn’t allow reciprocal love on man's part is also blatantly false. Man’s will is very much involved. Seems your understanding of this is very weak at best. God’s Decrees, Grace and Mercy do not negate man’s responsibilities, abilities, or will. In fact, just the very opposite (as has already been touched upon in previous posts).

I appreciate you giving your opinion, though. Thank you.

[rdlb777]

Again my apologies for the time it takes to respond.

As to the cults, I have not included among my favorite books and resources, as I am sure you have access to as well, a great Bible Software program and other online accesses. Mormonism? Cult? I have read the books and receive no significant witness to the Bible. I have read the book "The Changing World of Mormonism" by Jerald and Sandra Tanner (Actually available online to read).

Jerald and Sandra Tanner were both sincere Mormons, descended from Mormon "first families." They believed the Mormon writings and, in studying them, applied the same sincerity in examining the seeming contradictions. As they began to compare the Mormon scriptures with the Bible, they could come to only one conclusion — that the two did not agree. It was with deep conviction that they yielded to the claims of the Bible, left Mormonism, and became newborn Christians.

As to Swedenborg's writings? As a former Atheist turned believer through God's intervention. I spent several years studying the KJV and NAS along with some Koine Greek at college. Attended the mainstream denominations (with the exception of the RCC), eventually reaching a point of leaving them all one by one, even turning down an all expenses paid for seminary and a position of youth minister. Having left them all because of doctrinal issues that I found contrary to the scriptures. I eventually discovered a church, of Pentecostal leanings, that had discovered the same things I had discovered within the scriptures. One mind, one accord and in the same judgement. There I discovered as well "True Christian Religion" by Swedenborg. Interesting much of what I had been shown within the Scriptures coincided with these two volumes. Influenced by Swedenborgism? No, influenced by scripture and God's spirit. To receive the things of the Spirit of God, according to Paul, one must non-physically understand those things. Parable, correspondence, symbolic, allegorical, metaphorical understanding of scripture to me is infinitely important. I take the Bible far too seriously to accept just a literal interpretation.

I disagree that man can only love himself and not God [if speaking specifically of unregenerate man in distinction to man (as in mankind) in general, I agree; whereas only Regenerate man can and will – however, we have not gotten into this at this point, so I can only assume you mean man in general]. Nor did I state or imply that; nor did I imply this results in the conclusion that God loves Himself and is selfish. If this is your position, I must strongly disagree.

I should have made the distinction as you have between the regenerate and unregenerate as to a love towards God. I also understood your conclusion as such that God only loves Himself and is selfish in His nature and from "that nature" seeks to save.

God is not a man, as both Swedenborgianism and Mormonism teaches.

There is a vast gulf between Swedenborg and Joseph Smith as their history is proof.

As far as God not being a man? He is God-man, incarnated as Jesus the Christ. Just a few scriptures for example.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Genesis 1:26 And God said , Let us make man in our image, after our likeness : and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

How you can take that to mean God is anyway coercive is beyond me. Seems like a very huge jump in logic, and I see no support at all given for such a strained conclusion. To say that it doesn’t allow reciprocal love on man's part is also blatantly false. Man’s will is very much involved. Seems your understanding of this is very weak at best. God’s Decrees, Grace and Mercy do not negate man’s responsibilities, abilities, or will. In fact, just the very opposite (as has already been touched upon in previous posts).

I took that position based on a comment of yours about,

"one of my heroes, Jonathan Edwards"

, an evangelical Calvinist and after reading his take on Calvin's five points.

[5point0253]

Again my apologies for the time it takes to respond.

As to the cults, I have not included among my favorite books and resources, as I am sure you have access to as well, a great Bible Software program and other online accesses. Mormonism? Cult? I have read the books and receive no significant witness to the Bible. I have read the book "The Changing World of Mormonism" by Jerald and Sandra Tanner (Actually available online to read).

Jerald and Sandra Tanner were both sincere Mormons, descended from Mormon "first families." They believed the Mormon writings and, in studying them, applied the same sincerity in examining the seeming contradictions. As they began to compare the Mormon scriptures with the Bible, they could come to only one conclusion — that the two did not agree. It was with deep conviction that they yielded to the claims of the Bible, left Mormonism, and became newborn Christians.

As to Swedenborg's writings? As a former Atheist turned believer through God's intervention. I spent several years studying the KJV and NAS along with some Koine Greek at college. Attended the mainstream denominations (with the exception of the RCC), eventually reaching a point of leaving them all one by one, even turning down an all expenses paid for seminary and a position of youth minister. Having left them all because of doctrinal issues that I found contrary to the scriptures. I eventually discovered a church, of Pentecostal leanings, that had discovered the same things I had discovered within the scriptures. One mind, one accord and in the same judgement. There I discovered as well "True Christian Religion" by Swedenborg. Interesting much of what I had been shown within the Scriptures coincided with these two volumes. Influenced by Swedenborgism? No, influenced by scripture and God's spirit. To receive the things of the Spirit of God, according to Paul, one must non-physically understand those things. Parable, correspondence, symbolic, allegorical, metaphorical understanding of scripture to me is infinitely important. I take the Bible far too seriously to accept just a literal interpretation.

I disagree that man can only love himself and not God [if speaking specifically of unregenerate man in distinction to man (as in mankind) in general, I agree; whereas only Regenerate man can and will – however, we have not gotten into this at this point, so I can only assume you mean man in general]. Nor did I state or imply that; nor did I imply this results in the conclusion that God loves Himself and is selfish. If this is your position, I must strongly disagree.

I should have made the distinction as you have between the regenerate and unregenerate as to a love towards God. I also understood your conclusion as such that God only loves Himself and is selfish in His nature and from "that nature" seeks to save.

God is not a man, as both Swedenborgianism and Mormonism teaches.

There is a vast gulf between Swedenborg and Joseph Smith as their history is proof.

As far as God not being a man? He is God-man, incarnated as Jesus the Christ. Just a few scriptures for example.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Genesis 1:26 And God said , Let us make man in our image, after our likeness : and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

How you can take that to mean God is anyway coercive is beyond me. Seems like a very huge jump in logic, and I see no support at all given for such a strained conclusion. To say that it doesn’t allow reciprocal love on man's part is also blatantly false. Man’s will is very much involved. Seems your understanding of this is very weak at best. God’s Decrees, Grace and Mercy do not negate man’s responsibilities, abilities, or will. In fact, just the very opposite (as has already been touched upon in previous posts).

I took that position based on a comment of yours about,

"one of my heroes, Jonathan Edwards"

, an evangelical Calvinist and after reading his take on Calvin's five points.

Your representation of the two cults (Mormonism and Swedenborgism), which in many ways have much in common, is not entirely accurate. Nevertheless, this post is on “Decree – The Will and Purpose of God.” Though this helps explain a lot about your position on this topic, I can see this taking us off into an entirely different direction. I prefer to get back to what the actual Word of God states on this topic; and then perhaps in the near future get into a new thread on Swedenborgism. The first thing we should tackle there is the Nature of God – contrast and compare what God Himself has revealed about Himself in Scripture to the false doctrine regarding God espoused within Swedenborgism. Should be interesting.

To your last response in your post, I must admit that I still don’t understand. Sorry – you’re not making any sense to me (I’m sure it’s just a communication thing – might just be one of those things that if we were face to face it would be clearer). Thank you all the same.

[rdlb777]

To your last response in your post, I must admit that I still don’t understand. Sorry – you’re not making any sense to me (I’m sure it’s just a communication thing – might just be one of those things that if we were face to face it would be clearer). Thank you all the same.

Agreed.

Peace to you and yours.

[GinaBurgess]

As to God's self-love, we inherited it from Him thus the command to love others as we love ourselves. What man hates his own body? Paul asked that question, I think. It extends toward sanctity of life, and love of family and especially children.

Without that embedded mechanism, our world would be chaotic at best, murderous at the worst.