The Sabbath Sign - Mark of God's Authority

[JohnOxios]

AllenWJones"]JohnOxios, your attempted obfuscation of the point is amazing.. it is clear to me you have a lot of practice. But that does not change the reality of the scriptures no matter how many false assertions and logical fallacies you try to bring into this discussion.

What are you clear on?? When you can't find the written word you try to push your opinion, and call it Logic? You request Scripture for my proof, and yet you can deduce your own ideas by stretching scripture to fit them.
If it's not there its not there. You'd like to wipe out any and all Apostolic teaching as Paul state which was given by spirit,
spoken words or letter:


2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Not every instruction could be written!!! Not every lesson was put in print, it was learned by example and practice.
Your not going to wipe out 2000 yrs of practice passed down from generation to generation with some obscure Bible translation.


If your quoting from this obscure Bible, "J.P. Green’s Literal Translation “LIT”"well then that would be your downfall!

Allen Jones, "I will only address the relevant points from now on for brevity's sake.

Acts 20:6-7"]But we sailed along after the days of Unleavened Bread from Philippi, and came to them at Troas in five days, where we stayed seven days. And on the first of the sabbaths, the disciples having been assembled to break bread, being about to depart on the morrow, Paul reasoned to them. And he continued his speech until midnight.

Here' the reality of Scripture:
The RSV :

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

KJV Acts 20:7
And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread
The phrase used here in Greek is: 'mia sabbaton' which in context is a reference to counting off the seven sabbaths between days of unleavened bread and firstfruits (pentacost).

Here's another 15 different translations that say Acts 20 :7 "The first day of the week"

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Acts&c=20&v=7&t=RSV#vrsn/7

This is Young's literal translation:

7And on the first of the week, the disciples having been gathered together to break bread, Paul was discoursing to them, about to depart on the morrow, he was also continuing the discourse till midnight,

That's 16 different Bible translations that disagree with what you quote, and if you're using J.P Greens version well it's suppose to agree with the YLT your webpage url :
[url]

http://standingchristian.com/about/[/url]
"Because of the pollution of the modern “bibles” we have chosen to use quotes from J.P. Green’s Literal Translation “LIT” (used in the Hebrew/Greek Interlinear Bible) and from Young’s Literal Translation “YLT” unless otherwise specified

.

J.P Greenes Bible, copyright 1976. According to the Scholars, the oldest mss are the closest to the exact text. j.P Greene 1976 well I don't think so!

Seems if you don't agree with the majority of Bible translations, write another one to fit your way! Charles Tazz Russel did it, and he could read or write a lick of Hebrew, or Greek but swore he did.

The KJV and RSV are most acceptable to theologians and scholars around the World.


Allow me to ask you , Who wrote the 'Texus Receptus?' You'll find a Catholic Monk named Erasmus did, he translated the Latin Vukgate back into the Greek and Hebrew, and did not have access to many ancient MSS to help him. He did as a hobby of interest, not for any specific problem in the Church.

[i]And you shall number to you from the next day after the sabbath, from the day you bring in the sheaf of the wave offering; they shall be seven complete sabbaths; the next day after the seventh sabbath, you shall number fifty days; and you shall bring near a new food offering to Jehovah; you shall bring in bread out of your dwellings for a wave offering, two loaves ; they shall be of two tenth ephah of flour; they shall be baked with leaven; firstfruits to Jehovah

Levitcus comes religious Law, which comes after the Exodus, A Sheaf offering is a wave offering,

Do you know what a wave offering is?? It is what we do at the Mass, remember Gentiles are not required to live like Jews, why do you insist on placing us under the law, when we are under grace!!!

Allen Jones,

19 Then it being evening on that day, the first of the sabbaths, and the doors having been locked where the disciples were assembled because of fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace to you.

[This passage uses "mia sabbaton" as well for a similar reason. Directly after passover is the days of Unleavened Bread which has 2 sabbaths

Actually the two Sabbaths are at the crucifixion, Passover Thursday to friday Eve, Sat 'High sabbath' and Sunday the eighth day..

YLT also says, John 20 :19 " being, therefore, evening, on that day, the first of the sabbaths, and the doors having been "

The other 15 versions do not have the word sabbaths in John 20:19.
So, i would deny your version of Scripture.

"...; you shall eat unleavened things seven days. On the [b]first day you shall have a holy gathering;[/b] you shall do no work of service; and you shall bring near a fire offering to Jehovah seven days; and the seventh day shall be a holy gathering; you shall do no work of service.

Allen Jones "There is even a mention of the second sabbath in in Luke 6:1 but it is not clear to which of the holy days it is referring to.

it wouldn't be clear to you because you won't see Sunday as a day of Sabbath.
But let's go to some Protestants:
http://biblecommenter.com/luke/6-1.htm

People's New Testament commentary Luke 6,
On the second sabbath after the first. The common text, the second-first in the Greek, is referred by Godet to second-first Sunday of the year. The first first Sabbath was the first Sabbath of the civil year; the second first was the first sabbath of the religious year. It came in the spring.

Wesley's Notes

6:1 The first Sabbath - So the Jews reckoned their Sabbaths, from the passover to pentecost; the first, second, third, and so on, till the seventh Sabbath (after the second day.) This immediately preceded pentecost, which was the fiftieth day after the second day of unleavened bread. Matthew 12:1; Mark 2:23

(a) Epiphanius notes well in his treatise, where he refutes Ebion, that the time when the disciples plucked the ears of the corn was in the feast of unleavened bread. Now, in those feasts which were kept over a period of many days, as the feast of tabernacles and passover, their first day and the last were very solemn; see Leviticus 23:1-44. Luke then fitly calls the last day the second sabbath, though Theophylact understands it to be any of the sabbaths that followed the first.
Pentecost is a Sunday, after 7weeks of 7 days, the Eighth Day, Sunday

And about the collection for the saints, as I charged the assemblies of Galatia, so also you do. On one of the sabbaths, let each of you put by himself, storing up whatever he is prospered, that there not be collections then when I come.

Allen Jones, Again the Greek phrase used is "mia sabbaton" which has always referred to a last day of the week sabbath in this context it is one of the sabbaths after receipt of the letter

.

yea sure okay right!!! That what some wants you to believe.. Don't believe everything you hear, Check them out for yourself, see exactly what the other party is teaching. and then ask the Holy Spirit to help you to discern the truth.

I believe it is because of the misuse of the scripture that the sabbath day was thought to be changed by Catholicism. There is a history of this kind of distortion as Luther and the Reformers had pointed out. But don't take their word for it.. study it out yourself

.

C'mon todays Bible versions are even more accurate than the ones over a hundred yrs ago... the Qumran scrolls backed up the Scriptures wjth the oldest MSS available... Show me where you can, that Catholics changed Scripture?? History of distortion!! WOW, Luther added one word to His German Bible 'alone' to Romans 1:17


[KJV] Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith {Alone)

If you believe that the catholic Church changed scripture how the heck can you call it God's word? How can it be sacred? You just opened the door to state what you think is true and what was added. You can reject whatever you like under tie guise of, Oh this must not be true and was added too" I don't think so, It seems you belong to the Church of the Burger King The Bible is the inerrant word of God!!! Or IT's not!!! You can't have it your way!

"If you believe what you like in the gospels,
and reject what you don't like,
it is not the gospel you believe but yourself."
~ St. Augustine

Allen Jones, You have proven my point about being close-minded..
May God Bless you, and His will be done

Is that suppose to scare me?? Close minded? You have to turn to obscure bible translations, logic, innuendo. Try reading some Church history for your self, go to the source! What? you been going to Bible study for six months, and think you know it all? I've studied with Jehovah witnesses, 7th day Adventist, Salvation Army, Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals (Trinitarian and Modalists), Wesleyans, and Catholic.
I 'm still open, but the stuff you peddling just doesn't work out, How many Christians around the world, worship and Honor God on Sunday?
compared to the likes of you??

God bless,
John

[AllenWJones]

JohnOxios said: " When you can't find the written word you try to push your opinion, and call it Logic?"

Funny, that's exactly what I am thinking about your responses relating to my original question (to which you never gave an answer).

Where in scripture does it show God changed the 4th commandment to keep the sabbath of rest on the last day of every week?

Until you can provide me a scripture to that effect, then Jesus testimony in Matthew 5 stands..

Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass. Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them , this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

And just to be clear, keep reading Matthew 5 for confirmation of which law and commandments Jesus is talking about..

21 You have heard that it was said to the ancients: "Do not commit murder!" And, Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the Judgment.

You have heard that it was said to the ancients: "Do not commit adultery." But I say to you, Everyone looking at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

As to 'mia sabbaton' I have shown a betterl rendering of these verses from the Greek, not a particular translation. The advantage comes when you begin to see the historical alignment of the holy days with Jesus actions and that of the Apostles.

Show me anywhere in the old testament where sabbath is anything other than the last day of every week or one of God's seven holy days.. which is what the Greek 'sabbaton' refers to.

JohnOxios said: "C'mon todays Bible versions are even more accurate than the ones over a hundred yrs ago."

This is a hoot.. I challenge you to actually read your Bible in the following passage and tell me what's missing:

So, then, you should pray this way: Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come; Your will be done, as it is in Heaven, also on the earth. Give us today our daily bread, and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil, for Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory to the ages. Amen.

"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe but yourself." ~St. Augustine

Take care to look in the mirror, sir.
May God bless you and His will be done.

[JohnOxios]

"AllenWJones"

Funny, that's exactly what I am thinking about your responses relating to my original question (to which you never gave an answer).

Where in scripture does it show God changed the 4th commandment to keep the sabbath of rest on the last day of every week?[/b

]

New Testament practice, teachings In Christ, We are no sublect to the Law:

Here it is::
[b] Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath

Allen Jones, Until you can provide me a scripture to that effect, then Jesus testimony in Matthew 5 stands

..

I don't have a problem with the beatitudes, in fact where does Christ say Blessed are those who follow O.T. Law to the letter, and keep the Friday eve to sat sun down Sabbath.... it doesn't!!! Why bring that up??

It may stand for you, but

Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass. Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them , this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

And just to be clear, keep reading Matthew 5 for confirmation of which law and commandments Jesus is talking about..

21 You have heard that it was said to the ancients: "Do not commit murder!" And, Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the Judgment.

You have heard that it was said to the ancients: "Do not commit adultery." But I say to you, Everyone looking at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

As to 'mia sabbaton' I have shown a betterl rendering of these verses from the Greek, not a particular translation. The advantage comes when you begin to see the historical alignment of the holy days with Jesus actions and that of the Apostles.

Been through that discussion a hundredfold before, it holds no water!! People will use that argument to say Christ was crucified Wed and rose on Sat morn, its nothing new to me, But you deny the Sunday sabbath after the 'mia ssabbaton', which is the problem. You only see what
you've decided you want to see.

[

quote] Allen jones, Show me anywhere in the old testament where sabbath is anything other than the last day of every week or one of God's seven holy days.. which is what the Greek 'sabbaton' refers

[/quote]

Can anyone enter heaven by right living?? In the O.T. even though he was righteous he was still not worthy to enter heaven.

The concept that by "right living" one can be saved only provides half the picture. In the Old Testament times "right living' required following the Law which included moral laws, legal laws and sacrifices. All of those only provided a temporal covering for sin.

It isn't until the New Testament that we get the full picture.

Religious Festivals, New Moon celebrations and Sabbath day are types of foreshadows

Colossians 2:16-18 (NIV) - Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. (17) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

******************************************

The tabernacle, the Law, religious festivals, celebrations and the Sabbath are all foreshadows of the spiritual realities found in the life, death and resurrection of Christ. Foreshadows was God's way of keeping some things secret from the principalities of darkness so the Lord of glory would be crucified for the good of mankind.

1 Corinthians 2:7-8 (NIV) - No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (8) None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.



Come to think about it maybe the Church did not honor the Friday - Saturday sabbath, because Christ was Crucified on Friday.

the old foreshadows the new, the new is revealed in the Old,



JohnOxios said: "C'mon todays Bible versions are even more accurate than the ones over a hundred yrs ago."

Allen Jones, This is a hoot.. I challenge you to actually read your Bible in the following passage and tell me what's missing:

So, then, you should pray this way: Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come; Your will be done, as it is in Heaven, also on the earth. Give us today our daily bread, and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil, f[b]or Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory to the ages[/b]. Amen.

At least I am not afraid to list the Bibles I quote, You, i haven't seen one yet!!!

Now, You've got to be kidding me?? This is a BIG DEAL TO YOU??? Its an addition to the Our Father. Its not in Luke's version, nor is it present in any of Matthews, earliest Manuscripts. You'll find it in a Byzantine text ( Clontz, p. 8). you may find it in some mss of Matthew, but it is not believed to be in the original text.
You'll find it in the Didache 8:2, which is the first known use of the doxology.

Catholics say it at every Mass, in its present form since 1970, but not attached to the Our Father.

Show me one ancient Biblical reference MSS to this??? You can't.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
# 2760 Very early on, liturgical usage, concluded the Lord's prayer with a doxology, in the Didache, we find, "For yours is the power and the glory for ever." The apostolic constitutions add to the beginning "[i]the kingdom," and this is the formula retained to our day in ecumenical prayer. The Byzantine tradition adds after "the glory" The words Father, son and Holy Spirit." The Eoman missal develops the last petition in the explicit perspective of "awaiting our blessed hope" ..."



"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe but yourself." ~St. Augustine

Allen J, "Take care to look in the mirror, sir.
May God bless you and His will be done.

I got two thousand yrs of teaching, instruction to fall back on in the Catholic Church, whence is your establishment's beginnings? 1990 a.d.?
Or are you a Jehovah Witness, that would be late 1800's?

IA least I can proclaim the faith I believe in... you? How right can you be, if you can't spell it out loud?

God bless,
John

[AllenWJones]

JohnOxios said: "I don't have a problem with the beatitudes, in fact where does Christ say Blessed are those who follow O.T. Law to the letter, and keep the Friday eve to sat sun down Sabbath.... it doesn't!!! Why bring that up??"

The fundamental flaw in your worldview is that God's words do not come first.

Tradition does not change the Word of God. So when Jesus says that the commandments are valid till heaven and earth pass away, THEY ARE VALID.

If you do not stand on the authority of scripture, that is your choice and it is between you and God. But it is disingenuous for you to argue Biblical doctrine OUTSIDE OF SCRIPTURE.

So I will no longer argue with you on the finer points of this doctrine without a concession from you on the fact that there is no scripture in the new or old testaments that change the sabbath which was set at creation, included in God's commandments, and upheld by Jesus in Matthew 5 as such.

May God bless you, and His will be done.

[JohnOxios]

AllenWJones"]
Tradition does not change the Word of God. So when Jesus says that the commandments are valid till heaven and earth pass away, THEY ARE VALID.

Hi Allen,
Let's go over this verse in context and not use it for a pretext to Mosaic law.

Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

This verse is used by John in Revelation, It means heaven and Earth will pass away as we know it. Knowledge of Scripture, the love of God are the only things you get to take with you to heaven.

Excepts from Jerome Biblical commentary: Pg 641 paragraph 26 (C)

The New Ethic: its basic legal principles and six hyperthesis.
No Major Christian Church requires its members to hold to the 613 precepts of the O.T.

There are contradictions within the N.T. on penultimate matters. This is not necessarily a disadvantage, since it should christian tolerance of variety within the church and help ecumenism .

Paul writes: Gal 2:15 We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners,

Gal 2:16 yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.

Gal 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.

(Read Romans 21-31)
Rom 3:28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,


Commentary David Guzik: Romans 3:31

(31) What of the law then?

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

b. Certainly not! Of course, Paul does not make void the law. As the Apostle will demonstrate in Romans 4, the law anticipated the coming gospel of justification by faith, apart from the deeds of the law. Therefore, the gospel establishes the law, fulfilling its own predictions. You use an obscure bible which translation of some verses does not line up with todays most accepted Versions.

Allen Jones, If you do not stand on the authority of scripture, that is your choice and it is between you and God. But it is disingenuous for you to argue Biblical doctrine OUTSIDE OF SCRIPTURE

.

Disingenuous wow I see you try to impress me by using 'ten dollar' words,

The eye sees what it wants to see, your ears have been tickled with false teachings. how old is your Church,temple, congregation? Does your membership depend on selling magazines?? or buying them yourself, and then asking for donations?

However let's go to the meaning of Doctrine:
–noun
1.
a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.
2.
something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.
3.
a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.
aka: tenet, dogma, theory, precept, belief.

Doctrine is the way you interpret the Scriptures (outside the Church God has given them to). You got your doctrines based on your interpretation of scripture of those who instruct you.
The RCC is two thousand yrs. old and can be traced to the very apostles who we received it from!

98% of Christianity can't be wrong, The Oldest Christian Religions celebrate the Christ on Sunday, since apostolic times, The apostles were Jews themselves, show me anywhere in the New Testament Gentile convert to Christianity must honor a Fri eve to Sat. eve sabbath. They were clearly not under the law or required to be like or act Jews.

If you do not believe in the authority and teachings of the Catholic Church, and apostolic Sacred Tradition, than how can you accept the authority of the Bible from which the Good Book came?

You can't have it both ways! It either is or it isn't.
.

Go back over your posts, when scripture did not back up your opinion, you tried to use logic, when scripture wasn't there to back up your opinion, you state it must've been. That's not relying on the authority of Scripture. What you are saying is, "This is our way of interpreting the Scriptures," in other words, you're are pressing your 'tradition' upon me.

What is the point of a new Covenant, if you keep on enforcing the old?

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath"

Col 2:20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the universe, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? [u]Why do you submit to regulations[/u],

Scripture says" WHY DO YOU SUBMIT TO REGULATIONS!"

Allen Jones, "So I will no longer argue with you on the finer points of this doctrine without a concession from you on the fact that there is no scripture in the new or old testaments that change the sabbath which was set at creation, included in God's commandments, and upheld by Jesus in Matthew 5 as such

.
Is this what your temple elder told you to do? That's the phoniest excuse ever!!! Someone is afraid of you finding the real truth.
I showed you several Col 2:16, 20, Galatians, for starters... if I had a dime for every person who tried to win a discussion by stating "I will no longer..."
you're trying to persuade me by threatening me to concede? When you give me opinion and logic, your doctrines which conflict with mine, my studies of twenty yrs. ten of which were in protestant Church's. You are not open, you are closed minded.. and opinionated, but, that's where you are on your journey.


Mat 5:29 "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell."

Do you still have both eyes? When you repent of sin do you go and hang yourself?

Mat 27:3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders,Mat 27:4 saying, "I have sinned in betraying innocent blood.Mat 27:5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself.

then you don't follow scripture to the letter of the Law!

Matt 5 is before Jesus' death and Resurrection! Before the New Covenant Jesus is a pious Jew, we are gentiles whom He grafted into the vine.



Let's quote:

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
:32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD.

{ [i]Not like the Mosaic Law}

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[Not the Old Testament, but in our hearts] Which by the way are appropriately today called, the 'Hebrew Scriptures' for political/ ecumenical correctness.]

Jer 31:34 And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

[compare (cf) Hebrews 8: 9 -13]

Jesus institues this new Covenant at the Last Supper:

Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood

Mat 26:28 for this is [b]my blood of the covenant,[/b] which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins

Mar 14:24 And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

Your a big Hebrews quoter:

Hbr 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Better than the Old Covenant, hmmm, which would that be?


Hbr 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.

[The Mosaic law was until a better fuller Covenant in Jesus could be established. ]


Hbr 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

New Covenant given to the Apostles, who are guided by the Holy Spirit, written on their hearts. And taught by word, and practice and in writing.
Not everything was written.

In Jesus we have a covenant of loving-kindness,

Jesus did not break in principle with Torah, but only with the pharisaic halaka. Yet he was a free spirit who directly confronted and resolved life situations in His healings and parables without carefully citing texts.

Mat 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

God bless,
John

[AllenWJones]

JohnOxios, you speak to me about truth and understanding but according to Jesus own testimony you do not have truth until you keep His commandments.

If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age, the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you.

Your arguments are out of context and irrational. I will not continue to wrangle words with you to no good purpose. May God bless you, and His will be done.

[JohnOxios]

JohnOxios, you speak to me about truth and understanding but according to Jesus own testimony you do not have truth until you keep His commandments.

Your arguments are out of context and irrational. I will not continue to wrangle words with you to no good purpose. May God bless you, and His will be done.

Hello Allen J.
You won't because you can't, you can't even tell anyone what faith you are practicing or where your teachings and instruction comes from?

Self interpretation need not apply.

What is the faith you claim to be practicing? The religion of the Book??
That's not Christian, it's not even Jewish/ Hebrew, the book is a guide for teaching not the authority on teaching.
always has been, how do you think there are so many denominations?
Anybody can be up the Book decide what they like and teach something?
But is it what was meant when they wrote at the time scripture was written? Acts, Paul's letters were about how the Church grew and the problems that developed because people were making themselves authorities on Christ.

First century Christians learned by oral teachings, example and instruction and practice, from the apostles themselves, or those sent with their authority to teach. They weren't given pamphlets, letters on occasions, but they preached what they learned from those who witnessed Christ.And so it goes today, apostolic witness passed down from Christ which is BACKed up by scripture, NOT the other way around.


I give you scripture, you give me logic. you give me proof-texts for pretexts, (Text without context is a pretext) I give you scripture in the context it was written, commentaries to back it up, I give you 16 Bible translations versions, you give me J.P. Greene because that version works for you!

Moses heard, he still taught and told what he heard, he judged men judiciously, using the Scripture, interpreting what was meant to the people of God who told Moses later to write it down. commanded him to write down to help others learn to judge and interpret His Word. Abraham heard, Isaac heard and fought, they lived by faith, not in a book, but in God.

Keep searching though, don't take one particular view read several different interpretations then pray and try to decide with the help of the Holy Spirit. Look up what they are actually telling you as truth.

Luk 11:9 And I tell you, Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

You're not asking! Your telling !! Pushing your beliefs which are contrary to 98% of the ret of the Christian Church's...

I'm trying to teach you why I understand the why I do... but you're not able to listen or understand... YOU can't save anyone!!! That's Jesus' Job! You can't convince me, convict me of sin, that's the Holy Spirit's job, and he's not telling me I'm not going to be saved because I Worship God on Sunday's.
You showed me what people showed you, well that's a good start now go out and listen to why other people believe, why and get some understanding.

Allen jones "wrangle words to no good purpose"

All I can say is 'wow' very Christlike of you, My guess is you think it is a waste of time to discuss what, and why I believe the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ though His apostles. That's okay.

However, Christ spoke with everyone, Pharisees, sadducees, High priests, Samaritans (whom the Hebrews loathed) Gentiles, and all siners alike! You see Christ didn't see waste people, he just saw people who were creations of God.

Have a good life in spite of yourself, remember be kind to your neighbor. When you figure out whom they are.


Let me ask you a simple question, Adam and Eve's expulsion from the Garden, an act of punishment? or an act of Mercy?


God bless,
John

[AllenWJones]

John, I have debated coming back to this topic to refute the many fallacies you portrayed in your last reply. It is a real shame that you cannot understand. But I will answer your last question as it is something of a recent conversation in several other circles..

You asked: "Let me ask you a simple question, Adam and Eve's expulsion from the Garden, an act of punishment? or an act of Mercy?"

God told Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam sinned by eating from that very tree. The punishment for Adam was to grow his own food instead of eating from God's perfect garden.

But there are two consequences to this choice as well:

1. Adam, being separated from God's garden would eventually die not having access to the tree of life.

2. Adam, knowing good and evil realized he was naked and sought out a covering of fig leaves.

The punishment God gave Adam was just to the crime. The consequence of death logically follows this punishment, and as God stated was to prevent man from being evil forever.

The second consequence followed the knowledge of good and evil in knowing nakedness.. but Adam's covering of leaves was not sufficient. God chose to sacrifice an animal and clothe Adam's nakedness with the skin.

It is really amazing to me that the entire gospel plan was summed up in this one action.. God gave us free will so we would choose Him even though He knew we would fail but provided a just punishment, a merciful consequence, and a redemption from sin.

Why would God do this?

It is my understanding that without the freedom to choose God would not get the satisfaction of real love from us.. we would be programmed automatons.

It is my understanding that with the freedom to choose man would ultimately take God for granted, sin and be punished. This allows us to experience value in God having experienced what life is like away from Him.

It is also my understanding that with the freedom to choose and having experienced sin and separation, that we are able to experience hope, faith, trust, and etc.. which could not exist without choice.

In the opening chapters of the history of the universe God instilled us with the unique knowledge of salvation and why He alone is the authority invested into the Word of God.

This is why I keep Matthew 5, John 14, and Exodus 20.
May God bless you, and His will be done.

[JohnOxios]

John, I have debated coming back to this topic to refute the many fallacies you portrayed in your last reply. It is a real shame that you cannot understand. But I will answer your last question as it is something of a recent conversation in several other circles..

You asked: "Let me ask you a simple question, Adam and Eve's expulsion from the Garden, an act of punishment? or an act of Mercy?"

God told Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam sinned by eating from that very tree. The punishment for Adam was to grow his own food instead of eating from God's perfect garden.

But there are two consequences to this choice as well:

1. Adam, being separated from God's garden would eventually die not having access to the tree of life.

2. Adam, knowing good and evil realized he was naked and sought out a covering of fig leaves.

The punishment God gave Adam was just to the crime. The consequence of death logically follows this punishment, and as God stated was to prevent man from being evil forever.

The second consequence followed the knowledge of good and evil in knowing nakedness.. but Adam's covering of leaves was not sufficient. God chose to sacrifice an animal and clothe Adam's nakedness with the skin.

It is really amazing to me that the entire gospel plan was summed up in this one action.. God gave us free will so we would choose Him even though He knew we would fail but provided a just punishment, a merciful consequence, and a redemption from sin.

Why would God do this?

It is my understanding that without the freedom to choose God would not get the satisfaction of real love from us.. we would be programmed automatons.

It is my understanding that with the freedom to choose man would ultimately take God for granted, sin and be punished. This allows us to experience value in God having experienced what life is like away from Him.

It is also my understanding that with the freedom to choose and having experienced sin and separation, that we are able to experience hope, faith, trust, and etc.. which could not exist without choice.

In the opening chapters of the history of the universe God instilled us with the unique knowledge of salvation and why He alone is the authority invested into the Word of God.

May God bless you, and His will be done.

Hello, Allen W. Jones,
Just looking for a common ground, I can agree with the above!

God bless,
John

[AllenWJones]

While I am glad we have been able to find some place of agreement, I would ask you why you deliberately edited my last sentence?

;)