The Sabbath Sign - Mark of God's Authority

[AllenWJones]

JohnOxios said: "So how did the Church function without scripture?"

They had scripture.. the entire old testament. Jesus, the disciples, and Paul all quoted from the scriptures many times.

JohnOxios said: "Why is it you are trying to make GentilesOr new Creations in Christ Acts like Jews?"

Well first the term "Jew" does not apply as it refers to the tribe of Judah, only 1 12th of the sons of Israel. More appropriately, you should use the term: Hebrews or better still, sons of Abraham.

Second, we are told how we are to understand what the gentiles are to become.

Even "as Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness," know, then, that those of faith, these are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel before to Abraham: "All the nations will be blessed" "in you." So that those of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.

JohOxios said: "Show me where!" in relation to Hebrews 4

Logically, the Israelites (then only the Jews remained) already knew their own history but the Greeks and gentiles did not. Why shouldn't anyone teaching the nations not need to teach the history of God's chosen people?

JohnOxios said: "Sola Scriptura IS EXTRA BIBLICAL!!! Show me where Scripture says BIBLE ALONE!!!"

I have not said this.. I merely point out that Jesus is the Word of God which means the scriptures must be the authority in our lives. Our hearts are deceitful and exceedingly wicked leaving us to accept the inspired scriptures as the qualification for additional material. Anything that does not align with the Word of God must be discarded.

Since the scripture is clear on the sabbath, it is heresy to teach a change in sabbath.

JohnOxios said: "No where on Acts does any Apostle command the Gentiles to go to Synagogue on Friday eve's. Even though Paul and the
apostles went there to preach Christ to the Jews."

Hebrews 4 contradicts this statement, but even if Hebrews 4 had not been written (even though it has) we have evidence of Jesus, the disciples, and Paul keeping the sabbath as I mentioned in my original article.

More critical to this discussion is the fact that we have the scriptures, and nowhere in the scripture does God or Jesus change the commandments.

[JohnOxios]

"AllenWJones"]s.[/b]

Well first the term "Jew" does not apply as it refers to the tribe of Judah, only 1 12th of the sons of Israel. More appropriately, you should use the term: Hebrews or better still, sons of Abraham[/quote]

Hi,
No quite true grasshopper, back to the Good book.
Stop trying to be such a snobby know it all, I probably have several thousand hours more f Biblical study, Protestant mostly than you.


For insatnce:

Mordacai, is the first to be called a Jew (Biblically) outside the tribe of Judah, he was a Jewish exile in babylon however his geneology was from the tribe of Benjamin: 459 b.c.

Est 2:5 [Now] in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew, whose name [was] Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite;


Eventually all Israel are called Jews, from their religion identified as Jewish. now in the Book Of John when he uses the term Jews he is speaking of the Temple authorities. Not just memebers of the tribe of Judah.

[JohnOxios]

JohnOxios said: "So how did the Church function without scripture?"

They had scripture.. the entire old testament. Jesus, the disciples, and Paul all quoted from the scriptures many times.

Hi,
The entire O.T. ? No, there is three hundred quotes from the Apocrypha Writings (Deuterocanonical s) also but do you include those Books in the Protestant canon, by the way, several of those excluded Scriptures WERE found in Hebrew in Qumran, which means they were wrongly left out!

They used he O.T. to point to Christ, not to laud the law over the Gentiles.

Allen, Well first the term "Jew" does not apply as it refers to the tribe of Judah, only 1 12th of the sons of Israel. More appropriately, you should use the term: Hebrews or better still, sons of Abraham

.

More appropriately!!! Give me a break!!! rebuke thyself!! Jesus is called a Jew! See other post even Benjamites were know as Jews 459 b.c.

Scripture: Jhn 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

the only apostle from Judah was Judas, correct? then why in Acts is this question brought up?

Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

allen, "Second, we are told how we are to understand what the gentiles are to become.

Even "as Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness," know, then, that those of faith, these are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel before to Abraham: "All the nations will be blessed" "in you." So that those of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.

So where is the Law with Abraham, where is the sabbath??? Abraham was saved by faith not the Law! We are not under the Law e are under grace!!

JohOxios said: "Show me where!" in relation to Hebrews 4

Logically, the Israelites (then only the Jews remained) already knew their own history but the Greeks and gentiles did not. Why shouldn't anyone teaching the nations not need to teach the history of God's chosen people?

Logic has NOTHING TO DO with SOLA SCRIPTURA ...YOU CAN"T have it both ways at your convience!!!

Logic is interpretation>>

log·ic   –noun
1.
the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
2.
a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.
3.
the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
4.
reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.
5.
convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts

Logic does not apply in sola scriptura it is either there or not there,
Logic is how we know that the early Church celebrated and Worshiped on Sunday.

JohnOxios said: "Sola Scriptura IS EXTRA BIBLICAL!!! Show me where Scripture says BIBLE ALONE!!!"

[quote Allen,]I have not said this.. I merely point out that Jesus is the Word of God which means the scriptures must be the authority in our lives. Our hearts are deceitful and exceedingly wicked leaving us to accept the inspired scriptures as the qualification for additional material. Anything that does not align with the Word of God must be discarded.[/quote]

Backtracking already you said 'BIBLE ALONE' it either is or it isn't, read some Martin Luther, father of Bible alone, and see what he meant by it, I give you a quote when he was confronted with a wrong interpretation by an individual... "He said scripture ought not be put together helter skelterly, in that way, I can easily prove beer is better than wine scripturally" not exact quote paraphrased from what I remember).

Allen, "Since the scripture is clear on the sabbath, it is heresy to teach a change in sabbath.

No Allen you're the heretic to go against the 2000 year old teachings of the Church, and the 18,000 other Christian denominations who follow the Suday Worship of Christ on the day of His Resurrection and the Birth of His Church... Christ began something totally new!

Biblically how many different Covenants did God make with mankind?
Every broken Covenant we ought to have been wiped out, But God's grace and mercy, which we do not deserve prevailed. Jesus brought us a New Covenant, with new beginnings, with the Law written on our hearts, he didn't throw the book at us, he required mercy not sacrifice, he looked at the heart, not how we followed the letter of the law.

JohnOxios said: "No where on Acts does any Apostle command the Gentiles to go to Synagogue on Friday eve's. Even though Paul and the
apostles went there to preach Christ to the Jews."

Allen, Hebrews 4 contradicts this statement, but even if Hebrews 4 had not been written (even though it has) we have evidence of Jesus, the disciples, and Paul keeping the sabbath as I mentioned in my original article.

Make a statement (Imply) and back it up with nothing? C'mon give me the scripture alone backbone! It isn't there!


More critical to this discussion is the fact that we have the scriptures, and nowhere in the scripture does God or Jesus change the commandments.[/quote]

Yes he does... ignorance used to be defined as failing to see the truth when it is right in front of you!! Jesus empowered the Apostles guided by the Holy Spirit to go out and preach Christ to the world. Acts 15, the council decides not to make Gentile converts to become like Jews. I.e not subject to circumcision, diet, sacrifice the Temple not destroyed for the first 27 yrs. of Christianity.. There's no animal sacrifices being offered, would that not also be against THE LAW?

Again Christ came after 7x7 generations His death was the 50 jubilee yrin which they celebreted the Eighth Day, There's literature going back to 150 a..d. to prove this look Up Justin Martyr, if it wasn't so it would not have been preserved. If it wasn't so Christianity would not be Worshiping on Sunday since apostolic times.

what exactly is the faith you are practicing? I like to know whom I am having a discussion with and where they are coming from!

So far you have shown me one shred of so called evidence outside of your stoic O.T. scriptures. Which we use to prove Christ, not to live by.

God bless,
John

God bless,

[AllenWJones]

JohnOxios said: "They used he O.T. to point to Christ, not to laud the law over the Gentiles."

You make the assumption of pride with your language. Jesus did not 'laud' the law over gentiles, Jesus upheld the law and said it would not change till heaven and earth pass away in Matthew 5:18 and told us His commandments are how we express love to Him in John 14:15 and John 15:10..

Do you deny this?

JohnOxios said: "So where is the Law with Abraham, where is the sabbath??? Abraham was saved by faith not the Law! We are not under the Law e are under grace!!"

Sabbath was institutionalized by God at creation in Genesis 2:3 which means it is for all men. The sabbath of rest is the mark of God's authority over creation.

Are you a created being?

JohnOxios said: "Logic has NOTHING TO DO with SOLA SCRIPTURA ...YOU CAN"T have it both ways at your convience!!!"

Why do you keep bringing up Luther's 'sola scriptura' when I have not said this? This is twice you have tried to put this into my mouth to argue against it.. isn't that called the 'straw-man' fallacy?

According to John 1, Jesus is the Word of God. If you accept that, then the scriptures (which are all about Jesus from Genesis to Revelation) must be the primary authority in your life over all other sources.

Do you deny the Bible is the Word of God?

JohnOxios said: "Logic is how we know that the early Church celebrated and Worshiped on Sunday."

So then you acquiesce that the scriptures do not show a change in sabbath?

God set the sabbath at creation, reaffirmed it with Moses, Jesus and the disciples kept the sabbath, Paul and the Greeks kept the sabbath.. I do not care what distortions your early church decided to keep.. but to say sabbath has changed is not Biblical.

~

As to the term 'Jew' in relation to Israelites I am willing to study that further elsewhere.

[Bully6319]

Greetings from Austria,

I agree-GOD did set the Sabbath at Creation:

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Gen 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the Lord God made the earth and the heavens--

Confirmed to Moses on Mt.Sinai-Who later declared them to the People of Israel.

Exd 34:21 "Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

Now Hebrew Calenders first Day of the Week was Sunday-therefore Sabbath was on Saturday and Friday at Sundown was the beginning of preparation for Sabbath.

Are we bound by that?
Lets see what Scripture has to say!

Rom 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.

Rom 14:2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

Rom 14:3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.

Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

Rom 14:7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone.

Rom 14:8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

Is it wrong for someone or a Fellowship to celebrate on Saturday or Sunday or any given Day-or for any Individual to have a certain Day to Honour the LORD Jesus Christ who if we are true Believers and saved by HIS GRACE died for us on the Cross and shed HIS HOLY Blood for our Sins???!!!
Who rose from the Dead and is now seated at the right Hand of GOD the FATHER-all Power given unto HIM in Heaven and on Earth and under the Earth-the only one who fullfilled all that GOD has Commandet-the Sinless LAMB of GOD.

Does this mean that the Sabbath is outdated?Not at all because we have our LORDS teachings to the Apostles of getting together of one mind and hard to celebrate in remambrance of what CHRIST did for us and what He HIMSELF commandet:

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

Luk 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Now there are some Christians that do not have the Opportunity to Celebrate on a certain Day with other Believers as they do(Job;Sickness;Prison-you name it)
to rest on the "Sabbath"-are they sinning by not keeping the Sabbath Day Holy
and therefore not obeying the Law.

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, [fn] God made you [fn] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Col 2:14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

Let us only look at The LORD JESUS CHRIST and HIS written Word to us as revealed in the Scriptures-inspired to Men by HIS HOLY SPIRIT.

2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

Love in our Lord Jesus Christ,Peter

[JohnOxios]

AllenWJones"

You make the assumption of pride with your language. Jesus did not 'laud' the law over gentiles, Jesus upheld the law and said it would not change till heaven and earth pass away in Matthew 5:18 and told us His commandments are how we express love to Him in John 14:15 and John 15:10

Do I deny John 14: 15, No, I honor and Worship God, on Sunday's The Eighth Day, in Which Jesus His Son incarnate, was Resurrected, and Sunday the Day they were together and received the Holy Spirit the Birth of the Church of Jesus Christ, I also go to various services during the course of the week; prayer group, Bible studies, Mass.

Let's put it this way, did Christ add to the commandments?
Sure He did, He gave us the Golden rule. Why write the Law on our hearts? if you require us to keep our heads in the absolute letter of the Law.

Did the apostles require
Gentiles to be Circumcised as to the Law of Moses? No! Were the Gentiles required to abstain from Pork? No!

Look this up the prohibition against pork is believed to turn the Israelites away from the Egyptian god Seti, who totem was a snout nosed animal with a squiggly tail. Basically GOd was telling the Hebrews have nothing to do with Set (the pig).

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/set.htm

et (Seth, Setekh, Sut, Sutekh, Suty) was one of ancient Egypt's earliest gods, a god of chaos, confusion, storms, wind, the desert and foreign lands. In the Osiris legends, he was a contender to the throne of Osiris and rival to Horus, but a companion to the sun god Ra. Originally worshiped and seen as an ambivalent being, during the Third Intermediate Period the people vilified him and turned him into a god of evil.

Depicted as a man with the head of a 'Sut animal' (or a 'Typhonian animal' because of the Greek identification with Typhon), or as a full 'Set animal' the god is unrecognizable as any one particular animal today. He was also identified with other animals, such as the hippopotamus, the pig and the donkey, which were often abhorred by the Egyptians. These animals were sacred to him. Set's followers took the form of these animals, as well as crocodiles, scorpions, turtles and other 'evil' or dangerous creatures. Some fish were sacred to Set, too - the Nile carp, the Oxyrynchus or the Phagrus fish - because they were thought to have eaten the phallus of Osiris after Set chopped him to pieces.

The 'Set animal' has long, squared ears and a long, down-turned snout, a canine-like body with an erect forked tail.


Do you mean, the God of Mercy and forgiveness will condemn all for honoring and Worshiping Him on Sunday, and not a Friday to Sat evening??? We practice what the Apostles taught us, Mass/ assembly on Sunday. Scripture may not explicit on this but it is implicit.

Lev 23:7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work.

Here's one a feast for seven days No sabbath but:

Lev 23:39 "On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the produce of the land, you shall keep the feast of the LORD seven days; on the first day shall be a solemn rest, and on the eighth day shall be a solemn rest.

First and eighth day rest two Sundays!
and again,

2Ch 29:17 They began to sanctify on the first day of the first month, and on the eighth day of the month they came to the vestibule of the LORD; then for eight days they sanctified the house of the LORD, and on the sixteenth day of the first month they finished.

Easily some 70 verses on the first day/ eighth day as Holy.


Prideful? No! but you seem awful uppity! Telling me whats appropriate even when you yourself lack understanding!

Sabbath was institutionalized by God at creation in Genesis 2:3 which means it is for all men. The sabbath of rest is the mark of God's authority over creation.

Now you're skirting around, God rested Gen 2:3. it doesn't say God required man to rest... In fact God gave man the Commandments because to point to his sin. You'll find every commandment broken before the end of Genesis. And that' why God gave them the commandments.
God gave Moses the Comandments Approx 1300 b.c. Exodus @0, Deut 5

That would be God's rest here, just as in Hebrews 4, it speaks of our rest in God in eternity.

First time Sabbath is mentioned Biblicaly:
Exd 16:23 he said to them, "This is what the LORD has commanded: 'Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy sabbath to the LORD; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay by to be kept till the morning.'"

Exd 16:28 And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep my commandments and my laws?

Exd 16:29 See! The LORD has given you the sabbath, therefore on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days; remain every man of you in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day."


Exd 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.




JohnOxios said: "Logic has NOTHING TO DO with SOLA SCRIPTURA ...YOU CAN"T have it both ways at your convience!!!"

Why do you keep bringing up Luther's 'sola scriptura' when I have not said this? This is twice you have tried to put this into my mouth to argue against it.. isn't that called the 'straw-man' fallacy?

According to John 1, Jesus is the Word of God. If you accept that, then the scriptures (which are all about Jesus from Genesis to Revelation) must be the primary authority in your life over all other sources.

Do you deny the Bible is the Word of God?

JohnOxios said: "Logic is how we know that the early Church celebrated and Worshiped on Sunday."

So then you acquiesce that the scriptures do not show a change in sabbath?

God set the sabbath at creation, reaffirmed it with Moses, Jesus and the disciples kept the sabbath, Paul and the Greeks kept the sabbath.. I do not care what distortions your early church decided to keep.. but to say sabbath has changed is not Biblical.

God rested, Man is to Worship and Honor God everyday, not just one day. What is the purpose of man?? To honor and Worship God.

God gave the Egyptians the Sabbath so they were without excuse to honor and Worship Him. Anyone found not following the Sabbath was stoned or ostracized from the community. Show me that Biblically prior to Exodus! Joseph a Hebrew honored God, though he lived like an Egyptian, he was embalmed @ the time of his death which is a Egyptian habit. After Four hundred yrs. of slavery the Israelites had adapted to Egyptian practices... God used the Law to turn them away from their pagan habits.

Allen JoesAs to the term 'Jew' in relation to Israelites I am willing to study that further elsewhere

.

You don't believe scripture??? what's to study. Look up Mordecai on a search engine, he was a Benjamite and called a Jew.

God bless,
John

[JohnOxios]

"AllenWJones"]
Sabbath was institutionalized by God at creation in Genesis 2:3 which means it is for all men. The sabbath of rest is the mark of God's authority over creation.

You assume much show me Abraham honoring the Sabbath? Or anybody anywhere in Genesis? ( exception God's rest in Genesis 2).

Its not there, bible only right? If its not there, it not there!!

Allen j.Why do you keep bringing up Luther's 'sola scriptura' when I have not said this? This is twice you have tried to put this into my mouth to argue against it.. isn't that called the 'straw-man' fallacy?

You brought up 'Bible Only,' which what 'Sola scriptura' IS. Same thing different language.

According to John 1, Jesus is the Word of God. If you accept that, then the scriptures (which are all about Jesus from Genesis to Revelation) must be the primary authority in your life over all other sources.

Stop trying to use circular reasoning!!

I accept the N.T. Scriptures came from the Church, and that they are about what Christ taught them over three yrs, and that the very fact N.T. states they did not fully inderstand, God sent the Holy Spirit to guide them into New Insights of The Father through Jesus Christ. God is Love,!
and Christ said, God is the Father of all.... In Jesus's time that was considered Blasphemy.

Acts is about the Church and its beginnings, the Epistles are letters written to address problems, admonish, or exhort the church communities. There are the Pasotrals, and the Catholic epistles,

Catholic Epistle

The name given to the Epistle of St. James, to that of St. Jude, to two Epistles of St. Peter and the first three of St. John, because, unlike the Epistles of St. Paul, they were addressed not to any particular person or church, but to the faithful generally after the manner of an Encyclical letter. Though addressed to particular persons the other two Epistles of St. John are also styled Catholic, because they have always been grouped with the epistles bearing that name.
Do you deny the Bible is the Word of God?

Again with twisted question! ! Do you Mordecai was called a Jew??? You NEED to look into it!!! Why? The Bible says so..yet you deny it!!

JohnOxios said: "Logic is how we know that the early Church celebrated and Worshiped on Sunday."

Allen, So then you acquiesce that the scriptures do not show a change in sabbath?

Again, with the around the corner slight, and your answer is NO!

ac·qui·esce   [ak-wee-es] Show IPA
–verb (used without object), -esced, -esc·ing.
to assent tacitly; submit or comply silently or without protest;

The N.T. wasn't available in whole til after 100 a.d. Clearly scripture states the Apostles and Men authorized by the apostles were sent forth with authority to teach, from the instruction they received from Chriist.
Scripture NOT EVERYTHING CAN BE WRItten, so it was told, it was practiced and it was passed down.


N. T. clearly says they met on the first day of the week!!!

Allen J. "God set the sabbath at creation, reaffirmed it with Moses, Jesus and the disciples kept the sabbath, Paul and the Greeks kept the sabbath.. I do not care what distortions your early church decided to keep.. but to say sabbath has changed is not Biblical.

Grasping at straws here, show me where in Genesis man rested on the sabbath? Because Moses says "God has given you the sabbath"
This stuff is not hard to look up! Maybe you ought to find your references before you state your case!
You can't prove that biblically.. just a bad assumption to 'prove' your pretext.

exodus 16: 23

David Guzik commentary: (A protestant)
a. "Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord:
"This was the first time God spoke to Israel about the Sabbath. God essentially forced them to honor the Sabbath by not providing any bread from heaven on the Sabbath day.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/commentaries/comm_view.cfm?AuthorID=2&contentID=7386&commInfo=31&topic=Exodus&ar=Exd_16_23~

For four hundred yrs. the Hebrews were enslaved, how could they have honored the Sabbath let alone a sabbath!

Here's where you go way out on a limb (from your first post);

Allen J., "But Constantine did think to change the sabbath to sunday, the pagan worship day of the sun, as a mark of the church's authority over scriptures as was prophesied.

Constantine had nothing to do with Sunday services, they were already practiced two hundred and fifty yrs. prior to Contantine, what Constantine did was made Christianity a recognized religion and then used the "one God" to unite his empire. He placed Sunday under the protection of the state"

The Church further obtained the right to inherit property, and Constantine moreover placed Sunday under the protection of the State. It is true that the believers in Mithras also observed Sunday as well as Christmas. Consequently Constantine speaks not of the day of the Lord, but of the everlasting day of the sun...
The emperor granted many privileges to the Church for the reason that it took care of the poor and was active in benevolence...
it should not be forgotten that the Jewish communities had also their own jurisdiction, exemptions, and immunities, even if in a more limited degree
[url]www.newadvent.org/cathen/04295c.htm

[/url]

Allen J.As to the term 'Jew' in relation to Israelites I am willing to study that further elsewhere.

Let me know how that works out!!
God bless,
John

[AllenWJones]

JohnOxios said: "I honor and Worship God, on Sunday's The Eighth Day, in Which Jesus His Son incarnate, was Resurrected, and Sunday the Day they were together and received the Holy Spirit the Birth of the Church of Jesus Christ"

You have not shown this from scripture. I have provided many scriptures that show sabbath being kept on the last day of the week.. but even if I did not have those scriptures (which I do) then I suppose it is ok to lie, steal, and murder also?

JohnOxios said: "Let's put it this way, did Christ add to the commandments?
Sure He did, He gave us the Golden rule. Why write the Law on our hearts?"

Jesus did not add to the commandments.. He explained them in detail and if anything "raised the bar" on the understanding of those commandments by telling us that as a matter of heart, they are more than just the act but the intention also. Some examples..

You have heard that it was said to the ancients: "Do not commit murder!" And, Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the Judgment.But I say to you, Everyone who is angry with his brother without cause shall be liable to the Judgment.

You have heard that it was said to the ancients: "Do not commit adultery." But I say to you, Everyone looking at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

In order for us to keep God's commandments as He intended, we must give our heart to God and love our neighbor as ourselves. This is the sum of the ten commandments in two parts: To love God first and to love our neighbor as we would like to be loved.

JohnOxios said: "Did the apostles require Gentiles to be Circumcised as to the Law of Moses? No! Were the Gentiles required to abstain from Pork? No!"

I agree with this as Jesus Himself said Moses law was for the hardness of man's hearts. The law of God was written in stone by His very finger and confirmed as not changing until "heaven and earth pass away".

Do you deny Matthew 5:18-19?

JohnOxios said: "Easily some 70 verses on the first day/ eighth day as Holy."

This is illogical on the grounds that there is only 7 days in a week as set down by God. The only time there is an eight day referenced as a sabbath is in Leviticus 23 which happens once a year.

JohnOxios said: "God rested Gen 2:3. it doesn't say God required man to rest... In fact God gave man the Commandments because to point to his sin."

I think this is closer to reality. God gave us the sabbath example at creation, man sinned and continued to sin.. but when God reaffirmed His expectations to us it included the sabbath as a sign of authority thus validating the ten commandments.

You seem to miss that part of what sabbath is. It is a mark given to His people to set them aside from the rest of the world. I find it interesting that you quoted various scriptures that affirm the sabbath yet you reject it yourself.

As to logic: In John 1 the greek term for "word" is 'logos' which is the root word for logic. Along with "God is not a God of confusion" implies that God is logical, and so must His doctrines.

Do you deny logic?

If you do, here are some other things you deny that presuppose logic: Information, Language, Mathematics, Science, and oh yes.. DNA.

JohnOxios said: "God rested, Man is to Worship and Honor God everyday, not just one day. What is the purpose of man?? To honor and Worship God."

You know, I agree with this statement.. We are to worship God every day. But according to clear scripture we are to rest on the last day of each week "until heaven and earth pass away".

As to the designation "jew" applying to Israelites, I have said that I am willing to examine that scripturally.. you have denied examining the scripture for sabbath.

May God bless you, and His will be done.

[JohnOxios]

"

AllenWJones"]

You have not shown this from scripture. I have provided many scriptures that show sabbath being kept on the last day of the week.. but even if I did not have those scriptures (which I do) then I suppose it is ok to lie, steal, and murder also?

If the holy spirit guides you then you would be convicted of your sin in your heart without being told, the problem with sin is we can become callous towards it.

Is everything written? No even scripture states that!!!
Paul uses several quotes from oral tradition not found in the O.T.
Here's one:

Where are these names in the O.T.

2Ti 3:8 As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith;

Paul is either wrong in using these names or NOt everything is written, and Oral Tradition outside of scripture, prevails. Paul a Jew, from the tribe of Benjamine would be very familiar with Oral Tradition, with Biblical scripture.



JohnOxios said: "Let's put it this way, did Christ add to the commandments?
Sure He did, He gave us the Golden rule. Why write the Law on our hearts?"

Jesus, Jesus did not add to the commandments.. He explained them in detail and if anything "raised the bar" on the understanding of those commandments by telling us that as a matter of heart, they are more than just the act but the intention also. Some example

Really missed this one I guess:

I guess Christ didn't know what he was speaking about?
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Jhn 15:12 " This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.


Jhn 15:13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

The greatest command is:

Mat 22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the great and first commandment.

We take care of this on Sunday, as well as every other day of the week, Catholics are required to obligated attend Sunday Mass.

Mat 22:39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

I try,


JohnOxios said: "Did the apostles require Gentiles to be Circumcised as to the Law of Moses? No! Were the Gentiles required to abstain from Pork? No!"

[quote Allen Jones, "]I agree with this as Jesus Himself said Moses law was for the hardness of man's hearts. The law of God was written in stone by His very finger and confirmed as not changing until "heaven and earth pass away"[/quote]

So there are exceptions to the Laws of Moses concerning Gentile converts to Christianity. So how can you agree to disagree?


Allen jones, Do you deny Matthew 5:18-19?

you love these one verse questions!! They are traps for the uninformed!! basically anti catholic apologetics 1a.

No dietary laws still apply for those under the Law, again WE ARE UNDER GRACE not the law!!!

JohnOxios said: "Easily some 70 verses on the first day/ eighth day as Holy."

This is illogical on the grounds that there is only 7 days in a week as set down by God. The only time there is an eight day referenced as a sabbath is in Leviticus 23 which happens once a year.

Well then I guess God doesn't know what he's speaking about, he must be illogical to you. His law says after 7 days of feasting you are to assemble on the eighth day and hold a holy convocation.

try 23 versus here, God must be illogical according to you!!

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=eighth+day&t=RSV

"Those who do not understand numerals, do not understand the Bible"
[St. Augustine]

Obviously you don't understand!!!

JohnOxios said: "God rested Gen 2:3. it doesn't say God required man to rest... In fact God gave man the Commandments because to point to his sin."

Allen J, I think this is closer to reality. God gave us the sabbath example at creation, man sinned and continued to sin.. but when God reaffirmed His expectations to us it included the sabbath as a sign of authority thus validating the ten commandments.

You think?? Show me in scripture, Which, you require of me! No where does it say in Exodus God reaffirms The sabbath day. Moses declares "God has given you the Sabbath." not reaaffirms the sabbath

Your reading into what's NOT there, by claiming logic... We celebrate Sunday to honor and Worship God, His #1 is covered correct??
We believe in trying to love your neighbor as ourselves, which is very hard.. so we got the two greatest covered.

Noah had six laws he was to follow READ Genesis 9, nothing about keeping the sabbath either.. His covenant sign was the rainbow.

Allen Jones, "You seem to miss that part of what sabbath is. It is a mark given to His people to set them aside from the rest of the world. I find it interesting that you quoted various scriptures that affirm the sabbath yet you reject it yourself.

Okay, so...

it set the hebrews apart from there non hebrew neighbors. Outward visible sign i.e. like circumcision, long locks at the side of there heads, and there garments everyone knew they were Hebrew.

I am not a Hebrew, so why are you trying to make me act like one. On Sunday's my friends and neighbor watch me leave the House and go to Church, that is a visible witness of my Faith. Our sabbath day is Sunday, the eighth day, we celebrate our adoption into the family of God the Father, thhrough Jesus Christ and an inheritance in his perfect eternal rest. The Church has been meeting on Sunday since Apostolic times!

You still haven't told me WHat your Faith is? I read the webpage whoop?
doesn't say much except there is no trinity, and the sabbath is wrongly changed to Sunday. What are you? Adventist? Jehovah witness?

Allen J.As to logic: In John 1 the greek term for "word" is 'logos' which is the root word for logic. Along with "God is not a God of confusion" implies that God is logical, and so must His doctrines.

Your no Mr. Spock, you really ought to look these up. John 1:1, prprobably is one of the greatest verses in Scripture. He joins together Hebrew thought and Greek thought in one sentence.
To a Hebrew, the Word was far more than a sound, it is something that has an independent existence.
And in the Greek Philosophy Logos is the mind and reason of God.

Philo (a contemporary of Paul) held that the Logos was the oldest thing in the World and the instrument through which God made the world.

Ever hear the term, "Jesus came at the fullness of time" Gal 4:4-6,
Well that fullness was when Hebrew thought and Greek philosophy peaked.

And Gal 3:24, reminds us No one is Justified by the Law!
Gal 3:24 So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith.
So please stop shoving Fri to Sat eve, Sabbath at me, because, you may observe it, but that alone doesn't justify you before God. Those who live under the law will be judged under the law.. The law points man his sin, but gave him no power to overcome it. The law is not the rule of life for one who is justified. The believer is born in the family of God as a child (John 1:12) The believer is adopted as a son.



And you may as well drop the Subject with me, you can't convince me, I've done my Homework and I know that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus Christ started it took ten yr. as a protestant for God to led me right where I am today. This is where the spirit led me, this is where I am today in my Journey.

Do you deny logic?

According to 2000 yrs of Christian teaching you not being logical, so I deny what you perceive as logic!! What happened to Bible only or was it Bible alone? There is no room for logic/reasoning there.. it is just the literal!

Allen Jones, If you do, here are some other things you deny that presuppose logic: Information, Language, Mathematics, Science, and oh yes.. DNA.

Trying to use circular reasoning again!!! That's a bozo no! No! That only works on small minds!!
The above are sciences, the Bible is spiritual, its not meant to be a science book.

JohnOxios said: "God rested, Man is to Worship and Honor God everyday, not just one day. What is the purpose of man?? To honor and Worship God."

You know, I agree with this statement.. We are to worship God every day. But according to clear scripture we are to rest on the last day of each week "until heaven and earth pass away"

.

Now your mixing verses to prove you non provable point.

Proof in scripture they met to say Mass on the first day of the week:

Act 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

1Cr 16: 2On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come

Jesus appears to the Apostles and witnesses on Sundays, did they not Honor and Worship Him??

Jhn 20:19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."

Then there's Pentecost SUNDAY, awful lot of Worship and Honor of God on Sundays' in the N.T.

Allen Jones, As to the designation "jew" applying to Israelites, I have said that I am willing to examine that scripturally.. you have denied examining the scripture for sabbat

h.

Poppycock, Whats to examine?? Mordecai is a Benjamite and called a Jew! Its a simple deduction Watson. I've been in the Good book some 20 yrs. now.
You can't convince me the early Church didn't celebrate Sunday Mass, in Apostolic times. The Hebrews nor the Christians (Until the 1800 christian denominations) were never a' Scripture alone' Culture, it was always read and explained by the elders.


may His will be done??? Nothing any man nor mankind does will thwart

God bless You,
John

[AllenWJones]

JohnOxios, your attempted obfuscation of the point is amazing.. it is clear to me you have a lot of practice. But that does not change the reality of the scriptures no matter how many false assertions and logical fallacies you try to bring into this discussion.

I will only address the relevant points from now on for brevity's sake.

But we sailed along after the days of Unleavened Bread from Philippi, and came to them at Troas in five days, where we stayed seven days. And on the first of the sabbaths, the disciples having been assembled to break bread, being about to depart on the morrow, Paul reasoned to them. And he continued his speech until midnight.

The phrase used here in Greek is: 'mia sabbaton' which in context is a reference to counting off the seven sabbaths between days of unleavened bread and firstfruits (pentacost).

And you shall number to you from the next day after the sabbath, from the day you bring in the sheaf of the wave offering; they shall be seven complete sabbaths; the next day after the seventh sabbath, you shall number fifty days; and you shall bring near a new food offering to Jehovah; you shall bring in bread out of your dwellings for a wave offering, two loaves ; they shall be of two tenth ephah of flour; they shall be baked with leaven; firstfruits to Jehovah

19 Then it being evening on that day, the first of the sabbaths, and the doors having been locked where the disciples were assembled because of fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace to you.

This passage uses "mia sabbaton" as well for a similar reason. Directly after passover is the days of Unleavened Bread which has 2 sabbaths.

And on the fifteenth of this month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to Jehovah; you shall eat unleavened things seven days. On the first day you shall have a holy gathering; you shall do no work of service; and you shall bring near a fire offering to Jehovah seven days; and the seventh day shall be a holy gathering; you shall do no work of service.

There is even a mention of the second sabbath in in Luke 6:1 but it is not clear to which of the holy days it is referring to.

And about the collection for the saints, as I charged the assemblies of Galatia, so also you do. On one of the sabbaths, let each of you put by himself, storing up whatever he is prospered, that there not be collections then when I come.

Again the Greek phrase used is "mia sabbaton" which has always referred to a last day of the week sabbath in this context it is one of the sabbaths after receipt of the letter.

I believe it is because of the misuse of the scripture that the sabbath day was thought to be changed by Catholicism. There is a history of this kind of distortion as Luther and the Reformers had pointed out. But don't take their word for it.. study it out yourself.

JohnOxios said: "You can't convince me the early Church didn't celebrate Sunday Mass, in Apostolic times."

You have proven my point about being close-minded..
May God Bless you, and His will be done!