Hebrews 6:4-6

[5point0253]

by Rev316 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:24 pm
I was simply stating that I believe, as you do, that SJ's take on the status of the Hebrew believers is mistaken. They are real believers, not 'never saved'.

Hebrews 3:1 states " 1Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess."

People who are 'never saved' as Guzik claims are not holy and most certainly do not share in the heavenly calling. With all respect to Guzik, I find his analysis very weak. But we're all weak in our analysis in some areas aren't we?

I’m convinced that Hebrews 6:4-6 is speaking of true Believers. Though I am not 100% dogmatically certain and therefore do not have my heels dug in (I’m certainly willing to change my mind on this). I think the strongest argument made that it may not be true Believers being referred to in 6:4-6 is found in the use of personal pronouns throughout the entire context. The context, I believe, is found at least within 5:11-6:20. In this we read the author continuous use of pronouns such as “we” and “you,” clearly speaking of true Believers in Jesus Christ (specifically here, Jewish Believers). However, when we get to 6:4, it changes to “those” and “them.” It’s for this reason, primarily, that I cannot and will not say with absolute certainty that 6:4-6 is regarding true Believers (I think SJ is mistaken; but then, he may not be – he may be right). It’s possible the author is making a statement regarding unbelievers in 6:4-6, which is not true of Believers, and this argument is given to prove the point he’s making. Thus providing the reason why the author can say with confidence of these true Believers, “Yet In Your Case, Beloved, we feel Sure of better things – things that Belong To Salvation.” (6:9). If this is so, all but 6:4-6 applies to true Believers, and 6:4-6 applies to those false Christians that will fall back to that thinking, desiring, and acting that reveals their true nature (2 Peter 2:22; 1 John 2:19).

I have a different understanding of what salvation is than yours. I believe salvation is best understood as covenantal, with the covenant held between Greater and lesser, God and man. So within that understanding, salvation is not something which is 'lost'. Instead, covenant is something that can be broken. Some may see this distinction as unimportant, but to me it is supremely important.

I think the distinction is very important, and, in my mind, completely nonsensical and unscriptural. Scripture is clear that the Covenant is one made by God and applied to His People, and He sees that it is never broken. Moreover, Scripture emphatically states that those who are Saved will always be Saved. This argument is made in this very passage: “So when God Desired to show More Convincingly to The Heirs Of The Promise the Unchangeable Character Of His Purpose, He Guaranteed It with an oath, So That by two Unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, We Who Have fled for refuge might have Strong Encouragement to Hold Fast To The Hope set before Us. We Have this as a Sure and Steadfast Anchor of the Soul, a Hope that Enters into the Inner Place behind the curtain, Where Jesus Has Gone As A Forerunner On Our Behalf, having become a High Priest Forever after the order of Melchizedek.” (6:17-20)

Later he writes, “But when Christ Appeared As a High Priest Of the Good Things That Have Come, Then through the greater and More Perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) He Entered Once For All into the Holy Places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but By Means Of His Own Blood, THUS SECURING AN ETERNAL REDEMPTION. Because if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, Sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how Much More Will The Blood Of Christ, Who through the Eternal Spirit Offered Himself without blemish to God, Purify our conscience from dead works To Serve the Living God. THEREFORE He is The Mediator of a New Covenant, So That Those who are Called may Receive the Promised Eternal Inheritance, Since a Death has occurred That Redeems Them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. … Because Christ Has Entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the True Things, but Into Heaven itself, Now to Appear in the Presence of God ON OUR BEHALF. … because then He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, He has appeared Once For All at the end of the ages To Put Away sin By the Sacrifice Of Himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die Once, and after that comes Judgment, So Christ, having been Offered Once To Bear the sins Of Many, will appear a second time, Not to deal with sin But to Save Those Who Are Eagerly Waiting For Him.” (Hebrews 9:11-15, 24, 26-28)

And Jesus said, “I Am the Bread Of Life; All Coming To Me shall Not hunger, and all Believing In Me shall Never thirst. … All that the Father Gives Me Will Come To Me, and All Coming To Me I will Never cast out. BECAUSE I have come down from Heaven, not To Do My Own Will But The Will Of Him Who Sent Me. And THIS is the Will of Him Who Sent Me, THAT I should Lose Nothing Of ALL That He Has Given Me, BUT raise it up On the Last Day. BECAUSE THIS Is the Will of My Father, THAT All Looking On the Son and Believing In Him should Have Eternal Life, and I WILL Raise him up On the Last Day. … No One Can Come To Me UNLESS the Father Who Sent Me Draws him. And I WILL raise him up On the Last Day.” (John 6:35, 37-40, 44)

And, “but you do Not Believe Because you are Not Part Of My Flock. My Sheep Hear my voice, and I Know Them, and They Follow Me. I Give Them Eternal Life, and They Will NEVER PERISH, and NO ONE Will Snatch Them OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, Who Has Given Them To Me, is Greater than all, and NO ONE Is Able to Snatch Them OUT OF THE FATHER'S HAND. I and the Father are One.” (John 10:26-30) [note also 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 1 Peter 1:3; Romans 8:28-39]

“Now may the God of Peace Who Brought Again From the Dead Our Lord Jesus, The Great Shepherd Of The Sheep, By the Blood Of The ETERNAL Covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do His Will, working in us that which is Pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to Whom be Glory forever and ever. Amen.” (Hebrews 13:20-21)

[Rev316]

Hebrews 3:1 states " 1Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess."

People who are 'never saved' are not holy and most certainly do not share in the heavenly calling. For that reason, in my view it is impossible for the 'never saved' argument to hold here.

What does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean according to you?

[5point0253]

What does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean according to you?

How do I understand Hebrews 6:4-6? At this time, I lean toward two possible understandings.

However, any idea that this has to do with even the slightest possibility of anyone losing their Salvation I completely and absolutely reject. Any teaching that even suggests the possibility of anyone, even one single person, who has truly Come to Christ and is Saved to ever Spiritually hunger or thirst again, or being cast out, or not being raised up on the Last Day, or not having Everlasting Life, or perishing, or being snatched form the Almighty Sovereign Hands of our Triune God, or not with absolute certainty being Glorified just as certainly as they had been first Foreknown and Called and Given to Christ to be Saved, or ever being condemned, or in any way becoming separated from the Love of God in Jesus Christ, and not Saved Completely, absolutely, and to the Uttermost, Once and For All, must be rejected as being unscriptural, and a lie.

There are two ways (maybe three) that I think one might rightly understand this passage. In both, true Believers in Jesus Christ are being addressed (specifically, Jewish Believers, but the principles applies just as well to all Gentile Believers). In the first, Hebrews 6:4-6 applies to unbelievers only and is meant to show what is not possible of true Believers. In the second, Hebrews 6:4-6 denotes the possibility and dangers for Believers who do not grow as they ought.

Just an aside before moving on. There are those I highly respect teaching what is stated here is merely “hypothetical.” I totally reject this position, as there is nothing whatsoever in this passage to support this.

Now, in both cases it must be noted who are being addressed. These are Jewish Believers who have become dull of hearing (5:11); instead of being teachers as they should have been by this time, they still need someone to teach them Again the Basic Principles of the Oracles of God (5:12); they are unable to take in and digest that which only the Spiritually mature are able (v. 12) – they are unskilled in the Word of Righteousness (v. 13); and they don’t have the powers of discernment Trained By Constant Practice to distinguish good from evil (5:14). It’s because of this that they are being encouraged to mature, to grow as Christians, to show their Faith by their works.

It’s possible Hebrews 6:4-8 is referring to false Believers (false Christians). The author goes from “we,” “our,” and “us” when addressing these true Christians, to “those,” “them,” and “they” seemingly indicating a reference to others who are not true Christians. Now, if 6:4-6 is true of false Christians, then it is given to demonstrate the difference (contrast and compare) between those who are being addressed (true Believers in Jesus Christ) and false Christians. In this case, it appears that it’s teaching that false Christians will fall back into the state they once were before seemingly accepting and acting like Christians, except they will fall into even a worse state than they were in at first. They’re like those described by Christ, “Other Seeds fell on Rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. Other Seeds fell Among Thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.” (Matthew 13:5-7) In contrast, true Believers are described, “Other Seeds fell on Good Soil and Produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” (Matthew 13:8) Thus 6:4-6 is used as an example only to make this point.

If Hebrews 6:1-4 is referring to true Believers, then I think it is expressing what may happen to true Believers who not only are not growing Spiritually as they ought, but are remaining stagnant, and it shows, I think, a condition where the Saved can get to the point of complete inability and loss of godly productivity and witness. They are still Saved. “If anyone's work is burned up, he will Suffer Loss, Though he himself Will Be Saved, But only as through fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:15) “But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and Near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.” (Hebrews 6:8) [I think this last verse may apply to either the first or second ideas.] In other words, the Repentance (v. 6) that the writer to Hebrews speaks of is a “Repentance from dead works” ((v. 8) 1 Corinthians 3:13-15) After all, Hebrews 6 is all about these Jewish Believers showing their Faith through their works. This is the view I lean toward.

It should be noted that v. 6 uses the Greek term “parapesontas” (aorist active) meaning to fall away near by, to fall aside, to deviate, or to stumble, and does not denote a conscious and deceitfulness and falling into sin as would be expressed by “parabaino,” to willfully transgress. So we get the idea here of backsliding in contrast to outright willful transgression. “Renew them again” is “palin anakainizein.” “Palin” expresses to be back again (a continuation) of where one was. “Anakainizein” is renewed back to what once was (in contrast to “anakainoō,” to come in place of what once was, and the word that gives us the idea of apostasy or apostate). For this reason, some hold (a third position) that what’s being taught is that it is Impossible for a Christian to have a “new or qualitatively” different Repentance toward Christ, since that would mean Christ's Death was not Sufficient the first time. A person who is Born Again does not need to be Born Again a second time, and thus he is not going to lose his Salvation, but actually is Secure in Christ. This may be, but I’m not quite convinced yet of this interpretation. But the Greek here is important to consider.

I must admit, I go back and forth on all of this (this is without a doubt a difficult passage).

Finally, I would just like to point out that Hebrews 6:4-6 doesn’t say that it’s impossible to renew the person, being referred to, to Salvation, but instead, to Repentance. That needs to be kept in mind. Also, in verse 9, the writer mentions that he is “convinced of better things of you, and things that Accompany Salvation”; i.e., the fruit of Salvation: evidences that he is a Follower of Christ. He certainly wasn’t concerned about them losing their Salvation. His concern was regarding their Christian living, showing their Faith by their works, growing and maturing and thereby not stumbling to the point of where one might Suffer Loss, though he himself Will Be Saved, But only as through fire.

[swishboyd2010]

5point,

Though I do disagree with your interpretation of this passage, I must absolutely commend you for at least doing good, thorough and complete thinking and rejecting the "hypothetical" position on this. No disrespect intended to anyone who holds that position, but it is completely worthless and unfounded. It is a copout. You could not be more right when you say that there is nothing whatsoever to support such a ludicrous interpretation.

I can understand how you may arrive at some of the conclusions that you have suggested, and respect that you have clearly done your homework here and are not spouting mindless banter because you are having a hard time with a particular verse of scripture. It is clear that your heart is to glorify God. Be blessed as you continue to serve Jesus my friend.


Swish

[Rev316]

The switch from ‘us’ in Heb 6:1 to ‘those’ in v 4, to me, is a distinction without a difference, it does not change my understanding of the passage. The apostasy warning is just as real because it is precisely the fate of ‘those’ that the author of Hebrews is trying to remind the jewish believers of. There is nothing there to indicate that ‘those’ were false believers and everything to indicate that they were true believers, because they are described as having been enlightened, but most importantly as having partaken of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not dwell in false believers because God does not dwell in deceitful hearts.

In v 12, he says “We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. ” In other words, the author has an ‘already but not yet’ view of salvation, with the inheritance lying ahead. That is why he is warning these judaizers not to abandon their elementary beliefs and assembling of themselves to return to the old sacrificial system because the consequences to doing so are spiritually deadly.

Why spiritually deadly? The relevant analogous passage to v 7-8 is not 1 Cor 3:15 but rather the parable of the fig tree:

Luke 13:4-9
4"Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. " 6And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. 7"And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' 8"And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down. '

Compare with Heb 6:7-8

“ 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.”

It is unmistakable, to me, that repentance is tied to salvation, as Christ himself makes it clear in the parable of the fig tree. Unless you repent”, He says, “you shall all likewise perish”, contrasting the physical deaths of the men at Siloam with the spiritual death that awaits those who do not repent from dead works. If one repents from dead works, one is by definition, producing a crop and bearing fruit.

The author of Hebrews echoes the parable of the fig tree in Heb 6:7-8, this time emphasizing the land that produces thistles and thorns, but the end result is the same, it is burned, cut down. Notice too the Hebrews author’s use of the idea of cursing and burning which Jesus uses in John 15:6:

“If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. ”

Hebrews 6:1 emphasizes the importance of repentance, because these acts ‘lead to death’ . As we have seen above in the parable of the fig tree, dead works lead to death. Jesus in no uncertain terms says that the tree that bears no fruit is cut off, where cutting off is synonymous with death and the fig tree representative of the believer. It is the believer that is in view in Heb 6:7-8 and not his works, which is why I do not believe 1 Cor 3:15 applies here

“ Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death ”

This teaching is described as ‘elementary’ because it is the very foundation of salvation and the call for all to repent and believe to be saved. See Mark 1:14-15

"14Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee,preaching the gospel of God, 15and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel. "

Coming back to the author’s ‘already but not yet’ view of salvation (see v 9-12), we see later on in chapter 12 how he encourages them to experience that present and future salvation in v 1:2

“ 1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us , 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

It is only by faith in Christ that one can produce fruit, bear a crop, and receive the blessing. The law of Moses has no power to produce such faith, it is merely a mirror that shows us our need for God. Truly, faith is the only means through which one can run the race with endurance, for everything else will fail in generating true repentance, the kind of repentance that is symbolized by a fig tree with an abundance of figs on it or a vine bearing much fruit.

[5point0253]

by Rev316 » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:26 am
The switch from ‘us’ in Heb 6:1 to ‘those’ in v 4, to me, is a distinction without a difference, it does not change my understanding of the passage. The apostasy warning is just as real because it is precisely the fate of ‘those’ that the author of Hebrews is trying to remind the jewish believers of. There is nothing there to indicate that ‘those’ were false believers and everything to indicate that they were true believers, because they are described as having been enlightened, but most importantly as having partaken of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not dwell in false believers because God does not dwell in deceitful hearts.

First, unless there is real solid reason to say it cannot be, to simply disregard the change in personal pronouns is irrational. Whenever one is speaking about us, then suddenly speaks about them, clearly a distinction of persons is being made, unless there is something in the context or grammar that clearly dictates otherwise. An assumption, such as you present here, hardly is adequate grounds. Is the author giving them a warning, or is he presenting an illustration providing a comparison and contrast? Verse 4 begins with “Because …” The conjunction “gar” expresses the reason, the cause or motive, or principle, of what has previously been stated. And what was that?

“About this WE have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since YOU have become dull of hearing. Because though by this time YOU ought to be teachers, YOU need someone to teach YOU again the basic principles of the Oracles of God. YOU need milk, not solid food, because everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the Word of Righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. Therefore let US leave the elementary Doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of Repentance from dead works and of Faith toward God, and of instruction about Washings, the laying on of hands, the Resurrection of the dead, and Eternal Judgment. AND THIS WE WILL DO IF GOD PERMITS.” (Hebrews 5:11-6:3)

He now argues or defends this, writing, “For this reason [Because, Gar] it is impossible, in the case of THOSE who have once been enlightened, WHO have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore THEM again to Repentance, since THEY are Crucifying once again the Son of God to THEIR own harm and holding Him up to contempt.” And he then backs this up with this: “Because [Gar] land that Has Drunk the rain that often falls on it, And Produces a crop Useful to those For Whose Sake it is cultivated, Receives [metalambanei] a Blessing [eulogias] from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.” (Hebrews 6:4-8)

The verb “Receives” is singular present active indicative, denoting to have received and is still receiving. “Blessings” here is also present active. In other words, the whole reason one is productive (producing a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated) is because of God (2 Peter 1:3; 1 John 4:19; John 3:3; etc.). Those not so producing don’t have that same blessing. Thus, “This We Will Do If God Permits”. It’s not because of themselves, but because of God. But those described in vv. 6-8, though they may appear to be Believers, by their fruit we know them. “They” (in contrast to “we”) will end up as described. But these true Believers will not. Therefore the author concludes, “Though we speak in this way, YET IN YOUR CASE, Beloved, we FEEL SURE Of Better Things – THINGS THAT BELONG TO Salvation.” (6:9) A contrast is made between “them” (those who appear to be Believers, but end up unrepentant), and those to whom the author is writing to (who are of “Better things … Things that Belong to Salvation” – which includes true Repentance).

So the change in personal pronouns, it seems to me, no matter what position one takes, must be taken seriously and given its full weight. Context and syntax gives it even further strength. Other than one’s own personal preference, what reason is there, either grammatically or contextually, that would prevent this understanding? I’ve yet to see any good arguments from anyone that it absolutely cannot be referring to nonbelievers, and absolute must be referring to true Believers. In fact, that argument away from true Believers is quite strong.

You wrote, “There is nothing there to indicate that ‘those’ were false believers”. Some could easily argue that the very fact that they are contrasted with these true Believers offers good indication. Along with the fact that they have fallen away, and it’s impossible to restore them again to repentance, and that they are Crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding Him up to contempt. And there’s the change in personal pronouns. Seems like pretty good indicators to some (especially given no truly Saved person can or will ever lose their Salvation).

SJ’s post gave pretty good answers to your other points. Being enlightened hardly denotes being Saved. To have shared in the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit dwelt in them (that’s a bit of a big jump). The adjective denotes being associated with, or companions (referring to what’s external instead of what’s internal); it doesn’t mean being indwelt, or baptized, or filled, or even Regenerated (and is a different word than that found in Colossians 1:12 and 2 Peter 1:4 that does speak of true Believers). Clearly the Gifts and the Power of the Holy Spirit was manifested all around them, and thereby touched their lives and experiences. The whole reason they experienced the other things listed is because they were around or associated with all the things of the Holy Spirit operating within the Church and True Believers. Moreover, if they were true Believers, how does one square this up with Philippians 1:6? I think we can very well see these sorts of unsaved individuals described by our Lord in Matthew 7:21-23, and even by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:1-2.

In v 12, he says “We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. ” In other words, the author has an ‘already but not yet’ view of salvation, with the inheritance lying ahead. That is why he is warning these judaizers not to abandon their elementary beliefs and assembling of themselves to return to the old sacrificial system because the consequences to doing so are spiritually deadly.

Why spiritually deadly? The relevant analogous passage to v 7-8 is not 1 Cor 3:15 but rather the parable of the fig tree:

Luke 13:4-9
4"Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. " 6And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. 7"And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' 8"And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down. '

Compare with Heb 6:7-8

“ 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.”

It is unmistakable, to me, that repentance is tied to salvation, as Christ himself makes it clear in the parable of the fig tree. Unless you repent”, He says, “you shall all likewise perish”, contrasting the physical deaths of the men at Siloam with the spiritual death that awaits those who do not repent from dead works. If one repents from dead works, one is by definition, producing a crop and bearing fruit.

The author of Hebrews echoes the parable of the fig tree in Heb 6:7-8, this time emphasizing the land that produces thistles and thorns, but the end result is the same, it is burned, cut down. Notice too the Hebrews author’s use of the idea of cursing and burning which Jesus uses in John 15:6:

“If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. ”

Hebrews 6:1 emphasizes the importance of repentance, because these acts ‘lead to death’ . As we have seen above in the parable of the fig tree, dead works lead to death. Jesus in no uncertain terms says that the tree that bears no fruit is cut off, where cutting off is synonymous with death and the fig tree representative of the believer. It is the believer that is in view in Heb 6:7-8 and not his works, which is why I do not believe 1 Cor 3:15 applies here

“ Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death ”

This teaching is described as ‘elementary’ because it is the very foundation of salvation and the call for all to repent and believe to be saved. See Mark 1:14-15

"14Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee,preaching the gospel of God, 15and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel. "

Coming back to the author’s ‘already but not yet’ view of salvation (see v 9-12), we see later on in chapter 12 how he encourages them to experience that present and future salvation in v 1:2

“ 1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us , 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

It is only by faith in Christ that one can produce fruit, bear a crop, and receive the blessing. The law of Moses has no power to produce such faith, it is merely a mirror that shows us our need for God. Truly, faith is the only means through which one can run the race with endurance, for everything else will fail in generating true repentance, the kind of repentance that is symbolized by a fig tree with an abundance of figs on it or a vine bearing much fruit.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, then, the truly Saved can truly be lost and then never Saved again (contradicting God’s Word). As had been shown in earlier posts, no one truly Saved can or will ever be lost, perish, or be separated from Jesus Christ (i.e., lose their Salvation which is entirely the Work of God and by His Grace). I don’t understand the mixing of unrelated passages to make a point that contradicts the clear teaching of God’s Word.

Faith is absolutely important in our walk. However, it’s not something we produce, but have by the Grace of God. How we use it, or don’t use it, will have an impact. But if we have Faith at all it is only because of God. We have it only because He has Chosen to Save us. That doesn’t mean everything we do is the product of that Faith. We still sin. Many of our works will be burned up. But we will still be Saved.

“Because no one can lay a Foundation other than that which is Laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the Foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – each one's work will become manifest, Because the Day will disclose it, Because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the Foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, Though He Himself Will Be Saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

We should be careful, also, not to assume that “Repentance” always means the same thing or is always referring to the same thing in every usage found in Scripture (in fact, there’s more than one word in Scripture translated repentance, and not all mean the same thing). There is Repentance that comes about in God’s Children by the Holy Spirit. This is part of Salvation (one of the Things that Belongs To Salvation). God “repents,” and so did Judas. Unsaved people repent all of the time (remorse, worldly sorrow, change of minds). Many unsaved within the Church, included those in leadership positions within the Church, repent of their old lifestyles and even their thinking regarding Jesus Christ and Christianity. But unless they are truly Converted by God, they’ll go back to where they were before …

“But False prophets also arose among the people, just as there Will Be False teachers Among you, … For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the Knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to Have Known the Way Of Righteousness than after Knowing it TO TURN BACK from the Holy Commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened To Them: ‘The dog Returns to its Own vomit, and the Sow, after washing herself, Returns to wallow in the mire.’” (2 Peter 2) “They went out From us, but they were not Of us; Because If they had been Of us, they Would Have Continued With us. But they went out, In Order That it might become Plain that they all are Not Of us.” (1 John 2:19) “Everyone who goes on ahead and does Not Abide in the Teaching of Christ, does Not have God. Whoever Abides in the Teaching Has both the Father and the Son.” (2 John 1:9) “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and do many mighty works in Your Name?’ And then will I declare to them, 'I Never Knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23)

“yet in your case, Beloved, we feel Sure Of Better Things – Things That Belong to Salvation.” (Hebrews 6:9) [Titus 3:5; John 3:3-21; 6:35-65; 8:42-47; 10:25-30; Romans 8:5-9, 28-39; 9:11-24; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Philippians 1:29; 2:12-13; 1 John 5:1, 18-19; Hebrews 7:25-27; 10:10; Ephesians 2:1-10; etc.]

[Rev316]

By my understanding, the change from ‘us’ to ‘those’ does not alter anything. Let me illustrate: a coach could say the following to his players before a big game:

“Guys, let us move beyond the elementary plays and upwards, I’m not going to waste my time starting with basic footwork, the importance of crisp passing, and teamwork. I assume you’ve got all that down, you should by now. I also assume that none of you are taking any illegal drugs to give you an edge. For it is impossible for those who have once been under my training, have tasted the benefits of hard work and drills, and have fallen away by using steroids or other drugs, to be brought back on the team. I will not tolerate any cheats because they know better and are subjecting our team and flag and my reputation to public disgrace. Does everyone hear me loud and clear?” “Yes coach!”

In the above, we see how the coach switching from us to those does not imply that ‘those’ are any different than ‘us’. If anything, the ‘those’ exhibit the very same characteristics that the ‘us’ produce, namely, having been under that coach’s training, suffered through tough workouts etc, all the things that make them real players. And yet, the warning and its consequences remain, and are very real.

The contrast between ‘those’ and ‘us’ is meant to as a clear and unequivocal warning and does not denote any qualitative difference between the two sets of addressees. Likewise, with Hebrews 6:4-8. Those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have partaken of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, are real ‘players’. They are real believers. They did not merely witness or associate with the powers of the coming age, they have actually tasted of them. These powers actually can only come through the Holy Spirit.

Now here is a short look at the word ‘partakers’, greek metochos , which means to share in, as is used in context, in the book of Hebrews:

Heb 3:1
“Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession.”

Heb 3:14
“For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end ”

( notice above the covenantal nature of the partaking, as a process from start to the end )

Heb 6:4
“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,”

Heb 12:8
“But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers , then you are illegitimate children and not sons.”

Overwhelmingly, in every instance in context, partakers is used of true believers. If it is taken to be anything less than a real participation/sharing in, then those ‘holy brethren’ that the author of Hebrews is addressing are not holy at all, but deceivers, and we would have a massive contradiction that would be very problematic to deal with. So for the above reasons, I reject the possibility that partakers means anything superificial.

Now regarding falling away, I do believe that what scripture teaches is that it is a very real possibility and that once a believer has fallen away, it is final. They have quenched the Holy Spirit by hardening their hearts and God will not resist their will. In fact falling away is not a novelty to new testament believers, but also very much part of the legacy of God’s people under the old covenant as well. When they were delivered by Him out of the hands of Pharaoh/Egypt, their salvation was just as real as any other believer’s salvation. They believed God, they believed Moses and crossed the Red Sea under his command, and were saved. And yet their salvation was not meant to end there. They were called to be tested in their faith in the desert and find salvation there as well as find final salvation corporately again when they crossed the Jordan and took possession of Canaan. Yet, we know that some Hebrews saved out of Egypt had a rebellious heart towards God and died for lack of faith and rebellion in the desert. They fell away. This is precisely what the author of Hebrews warns us against! He says earlier in chapter 3:

Heb 3:7-19

Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[a]
1
2See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share ( see above study on this greek word, metochos ) in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[b]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[c]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief


We can see that the author of Hebrews says “were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt”. In other words, he is astutely pointing out that the very same ones who experienced true salvation by being delivered from Pharaoh, were the ones who sinned and fell. There was nothing fake about those believers. They crossed the Red Sea just like those who made it to Canaan. Yet due to their rebellion, they fell away, they broke covenant. After working the most incredible earthly miracle for them, all that God asked of them was that they believe Him and as a result of believing Him, obey Him. But they chose otherwise, to their destruction. The experience of the hebrews is a picture/metaphor for the life of the believer in Christ. It is full of the great miracles that God performs for us, the salvation of our spirits when we confess the name of Christ and are baptized, but also present are trials, tests of our faith which produce perseverance and the salvation of our souls unto holiness and partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) , and the final reward, the salvation of our bodies at the resurrection.

There’s a distinction to be made between falling away and the fallen. At any point in the falling away process, there is hope for repentance, but once those who are falling away have definitely fallen, it is impossible to renew them unto repentance. Their hearts, having been hardened are then set with eternal consequences. That’s really what Heb 6:4-8 is about.

[5point0253]

By my understanding, the change from ‘us’ to ‘those’ does not alter anything. Let me illustrate: a coach could say the following to his players before a big game:

“Guys, let us move beyond the elementary plays and upwards, I’m not going to waste my time starting with basic footwork, the importance of crisp passing, and teamwork. I assume you’ve got all that down, you should by now. I also assume that none of you are taking any illegal drugs to give you an edge. For it is impossible for those who have once been under my training, have tasted the benefits of hard work and drills, and have fallen away by using steroids or other drugs, to be brought back on the team. I will not tolerate any cheats because they know better and are subjecting our team and flag and my reputation to public disgrace. Does everyone hear me loud and clear?” “Yes coach!”

In the above, we see how the coach switching from us to those does not imply that ‘those’ are any different than ‘us’. If anything, the ‘those’ exhibit the very same characteristics that the ‘us’ produce, namely, having been under that coach’s training, suffered through tough workouts etc, all the things that make them real players. And yet, the warning and its consequences remain, and are very real.

The contrast between ‘those’ and ‘us’ is meant to as a clear and unequivocal warning and does not denote any qualitative difference between the two sets of addressees. Likewise, with Hebrews 6:4-8. Those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have partaken of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, are real ‘players’. They are real believers. They did not merely witness or associate with the powers of the coming age, they have actually tasted of them. These powers actually can only come through the Holy Spirit.

Now here is a short look at the word ‘partakers’, greek metochos , which means to share in, as is used in context, in the book of Hebrews:

Heb 3:1
“Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession.”

Heb 3:14
“For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end ”

( notice above the covenantal nature of the partaking, as a process from start to the end )

Heb 6:4
“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,”

Heb 12:8
“But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers , then you are illegitimate children and not sons.”

Overwhelmingly, in every instance in context, partakers is used of true believers. If it is taken to be anything less than a real participation/sharing in, then those ‘holy brethren’ that the author of Hebrews is addressing are not holy at all, but deceivers, and we would have a massive contradiction that would be very problematic to deal with. So for the above reasons, I reject the possibility that partakers means anything superificial.

Now regarding falling away, I do believe that what scripture teaches is that it is a very real possibility and that once a believer has fallen away, it is final. They have quenched the Holy Spirit by hardening their hearts and God will not resist their will. In fact falling away is not a novelty to new testament believers, but also very much part of the legacy of God’s people under the old covenant as well. When they were delivered by Him out of the hands of Pharaoh/Egypt, their salvation was just as real as any other believer’s salvation. They believed God, they believed Moses and crossed the Red Sea under his command, and were saved. And yet their salvation was not meant to end there. They were called to be tested in their faith in the desert and find salvation there as well as find final salvation corporately again when they crossed the Jordan and took possession of Canaan. Yet, we know that some Hebrews saved out of Egypt had a rebellious heart towards God and died for lack of faith and rebellion in the desert. They fell away. This is precisely what the author of Hebrews warns us against! He says earlier in chapter 3:

Heb 3:7-19

Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[a]
1
2See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share ( see above study on this greek word, metochos ) in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[b]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[c]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief


We can see that the author of Hebrews says “were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt”. In other words, he is astutely pointing out that the very same ones who experienced true salvation by being delivered from Pharaoh, were the ones who sinned and fell. There was nothing fake about those believers. They crossed the Red Sea just like those who made it to Canaan. Yet due to their rebellion, they fell away, they broke covenant. After working the most incredible earthly miracle for them, all that God asked of them was that they believe Him and as a result of believing Him, obey Him. But they chose otherwise, to their destruction. The experience of the hebrews is a picture/metaphor for the life of the believer in Christ. It is full of the great miracles that God performs for us, the salvation of our spirits when we confess the name of Christ and are baptized, but also present are trials, tests of our faith which produce perseverance and the salvation of our souls unto holiness and partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) , and the final reward, the salvation of our bodies at the resurrection.

There’s a distinction to be made between falling away and the fallen. At any point in the falling away process, there is hope for repentance, but once those who are falling away have definitely fallen, it is impossible to renew them unto repentance. Their hearts, having been hardened are then set with eternal consequences. That’s really what Heb 6:4-8 is about.

Thank you Rev. I find most of what you’ve written very unconvincing, though interesting and informative. However, anything that even suggests that even one true Christian can lose their Salvation is totally untrue and antichrist. I do hold, though, that Christians may back-slide to even the point of death. Their works becoming worthless, and in the end their works burned up. They may lose their reward, but never ever their Salvation. I suppose on all the other stuff we can simply agree to disagree. Christians have done so over this passage for a very long time. But I must continue to stand against anyone who teaches the lie that it’s possible for even one who is truly Saved to ever lose their Salvation (which is entirely God’s Work and by His Grace and to His Glory) and thereby perish and be separated from the Love of God which is in Christ Jesus, and not be raised by Christ on the Last Day; in other words, that God can fail and Jesus lie (which in the end is exactly what is being said by those who say a true Believer ever can be lost). Having said all this, I thank you once again for sharing your thoughts on this matter. Hope you’re enjoying your summer.

[Rev316]

Thank you Rev. I find most of what you’ve written very unconvincing, though interesting and informative. However, anything that even suggests that even one true Christian can lose their Salvation is totally untrue and antichrist. I do hold, though, that Christians may back-slide to even the point of death. Their works becoming worthless, and in the end their works burned up. They may lose their reward, but never ever their Salvation. I suppose on all the other stuff we can simply agree to disagree. Christians have done so over this passage for a very long time. But I must continue to stand against anyone who teaches the lie that it’s possible for even one who is truly Saved to ever lose their Salvation (which is entirely God’s Work and by His Grace and to His Glory) and thereby perish and be separated from the Love of God which is in Christ Jesus, and not be raised by Christ on the Last Day; in other words, that God can fail and Jesus lie (which in the end is exactly what is being said by those who say a true Believer ever can be lost). Having said all this, I thank you once again for sharing your thoughts on this matter. Hope you’re enjoying your summer.

Thank you 5point for the discussion, I've enjoyed reading your thoughts and sharing mine. Even if we cannot reach an agreement, I am comforted in the knowledge that reflecting on Scripture leads us closer to the Lord.

Shalom and til we spar again
Rev316